“Numbers” bigger than every natural number
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In the book Understanding analysis, by Abbot, when discussing the Archimedean property, the author states that there are ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$ that include "numbers" bigger than every natural number.
Could someone provide examples and and explanation why this could be the case?
analysis
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the book Understanding analysis, by Abbot, when discussing the Archimedean property, the author states that there are ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$ that include "numbers" bigger than every natural number.
Could someone provide examples and and explanation why this could be the case?
analysis
$endgroup$
2
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb Q$, ordered by: $f>g$ if for sufficiently large $x$, $f(x)>g(x)$.
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– Wojowu
2 hours ago
1
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Sounds as though he might be talking about something related to the hyperreal system, which has infinitesimals which (i) are smaller than any real number while being bigger than $0$ and (ii) have reciprocals bigger than any real number but smaller than $infty$?
$endgroup$
– timtfj
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In the book Understanding analysis, by Abbot, when discussing the Archimedean property, the author states that there are ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$ that include "numbers" bigger than every natural number.
Could someone provide examples and and explanation why this could be the case?
analysis
$endgroup$
In the book Understanding analysis, by Abbot, when discussing the Archimedean property, the author states that there are ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$ that include "numbers" bigger than every natural number.
Could someone provide examples and and explanation why this could be the case?
analysis
analysis
asked 3 hours ago
user2820579user2820579
716412
716412
2
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb Q$, ordered by: $f>g$ if for sufficiently large $x$, $f(x)>g(x)$.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Sounds as though he might be talking about something related to the hyperreal system, which has infinitesimals which (i) are smaller than any real number while being bigger than $0$ and (ii) have reciprocals bigger than any real number but smaller than $infty$?
$endgroup$
– timtfj
2 hours ago
add a comment |
2
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb Q$, ordered by: $f>g$ if for sufficiently large $x$, $f(x)>g(x)$.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Sounds as though he might be talking about something related to the hyperreal system, which has infinitesimals which (i) are smaller than any real number while being bigger than $0$ and (ii) have reciprocals bigger than any real number but smaller than $infty$?
$endgroup$
– timtfj
2 hours ago
2
2
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb Q$, ordered by: $f>g$ if for sufficiently large $x$, $f(x)>g(x)$.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb Q$, ordered by: $f>g$ if for sufficiently large $x$, $f(x)>g(x)$.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
2 hours ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Sounds as though he might be talking about something related to the hyperreal system, which has infinitesimals which (i) are smaller than any real number while being bigger than $0$ and (ii) have reciprocals bigger than any real number but smaller than $infty$?
$endgroup$
– timtfj
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Sounds as though he might be talking about something related to the hyperreal system, which has infinitesimals which (i) are smaller than any real number while being bigger than $0$ and (ii) have reciprocals bigger than any real number but smaller than $infty$?
$endgroup$
– timtfj
2 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
A concrete example
Consider the ring $mathbb{Q}[x]$ of polynomials over $mathbb{Q}$. These can be linearly ordered as in this answer, in a way that preserves the ordering of the rationals. Now we have the "regular" naturals in this field: 1, 2,3, and so on. But the polynomial $x$ is larger than all of these, and $x^2$ is larger than $x$, and so on. So in this ring there are elements that are greater than all the ordinary natural numbers.
By standard abstract algebra, the ordering on $mathbb{Q}[x]$ can be extended to an ordering on the field of fractions of the ring. That will give an ordered field that contains $mathbb{Q}[x]$ as a subring, and as such contains elements larger than all the ordinary natural numbers.
There are other algebraic constructions that give other non-Archimedean ordered fields, as well.
An example from logic
In logic, the comapctness theorem says that if we have a set of axioms so that every finite subset of the axioms is consistent on its own, then the whole set is consistent. Take our axioms to include the axioms of an ordered ring, and also the axiom $z > n$ for each $n$. For any finite subset of these axioms, we can choose a value of $z$ large enough to make that finite subset true in $mathbb{Q}$. So there is a model in which all the axioms are true at once. In that model, whatever $z$ is must be an element larger than every natural number.
In nonstandard analysis
In nonstandard analysis, we work with a field that extends of the reals in which there are infinitesimals. For this purpose, an infinitesimal is an element $delta$ so that $0 < delta$ but $delta < 1/n$ for each ordinary natural number $n$. Then if $delta$ is infinitesimal, $1/delta$ exists (because $delta not = 0$, and $1/delta$ is larger than $n$ for all $n$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb{Q}$. I don't know what the standard notation for this is, but let's denote it by $mathbb{Q}(x)$.
$$mathbb{Q}(x)=left{frac{p(x)}{q(x)}: p(x),q(x)inmathbb{Q}[x] text{ and } q(x)neq 0 text{ is a monic polynomial.}right}$$
To define an order on it, define $f>g$ if and only if $f-g>0$ where a rational function is positive if and only if its leading coefficient of the numerator is positive. I leave the process of checking the axioms to you.
Now compare $frac{x}{1}$ and $frac{n}{1}$. We see that $frac{x}{1}-frac{n}{1}=frac{x-n}{1}>0$. So, $x$ is bigger than any natural number $n$.
Edit: After Carl Mummert's wonderful comment, it is worthy to add that in order to have a well-defined order, we should first set the leading coefficient in the denominator to be $1$ by multiplying the whole fraction by the inverse of this coefficient if necessary. So, we can assume that $q(x)$ is monic. Now, we can see that the order we have defined is also an extension of the order on $mathbb{Q}$ as well.
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This is a good example but the order is hard to define; $4/(-1)$ is not a positive element, but the leading coefficient of the numerator is positive.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
2 hours ago
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@CarlMummert You're right. But the OP hasn't said that the order too must be an extension of the order on rational numbers. I mean it's open to interpretation. The OP's question reads "ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$". This is an ordered field and it's an extension of $mathbb{Q}$. But you're absolutely right that the orders seem not to be compatible which is a very good point. I think if we add an extra hypothesis that in cases like what you mentioned, $4/(-1)$ should be seen as $(-4)/1$, the issue might be resolved but I'm not sure. What do you think?
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– stressed out
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I see your point; I was thinking of extensions that preserve the ordering. There is a way to do this by looking at cross products, the same way we extend the order of the integers to the order of the rationals: $a/b < c/d$ if $ad < bc$. So that reduces to the problem to ordering $mathbb{Q}[x]$. as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1920165/…
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I was thinking the same way as @CarlMummert, although yes, it is subject to interpretation. Just as "field extension of $mathbb Q$" is a shorthand for "field extension of the field $mathbb Q$", I interpreted "ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$" as shorthand for "ordered field extension of the ordered field $mathbb Q$"
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
1 hour ago
1
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Yes, I think that resolves it.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
56 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
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Here's a well known construction of an ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$ that comes from logic and from nonstandard analysis, as mentioned in the answer of @CarlMummert.
Choose a nonprincipal ultrafilter on the natural numbers $mathbb N$: an ultrafilter is a finitely additive, $0,1$-valued measure defined on all subsets $A subset mathbb N$, such that $mathbb N$ has measure $1$; and $mu$ is nonprincipal if ${i}$ has measure zero for every $i in mathbb N$. The existence of a nonprincipal ultrafilter is an exercise in applying the axiom of choice.
Consider the set $mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$ which is the set of all sequences of rational numbers. Define an equivalence relation on this set: given $underline x = (x_i)$ and $underline y = (y_i) in mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$, define $underline x approx underline y$ if the set of indices $i$ for which $x_i = y_i$ has measure $1$. Let $[underline x] = [x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$ denote the equivalence class of $underline x = (x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$. Define addition and multiplication in the obvious way: $[underline x] + [underline y] = [underline z]$ means that the set of indices for which $x_i + y_i = z_i$ has measure $1$, and similarly for multiplication. Define inequality similarly: $[underline x] < [underline y]$ if the set of indices for which $x_i < y_i$ has measure $1$. Check that everything is well-defined, and that you get an ordered field.
To embed $mathbb Q$ into this field, map the rational number $q$ to $[q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,...]$. Check that this is an embedding of ordered fields.
To identify a number greater than any natural number, take $[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,...]$.
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
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votes
active
oldest
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$begingroup$
A concrete example
Consider the ring $mathbb{Q}[x]$ of polynomials over $mathbb{Q}$. These can be linearly ordered as in this answer, in a way that preserves the ordering of the rationals. Now we have the "regular" naturals in this field: 1, 2,3, and so on. But the polynomial $x$ is larger than all of these, and $x^2$ is larger than $x$, and so on. So in this ring there are elements that are greater than all the ordinary natural numbers.
By standard abstract algebra, the ordering on $mathbb{Q}[x]$ can be extended to an ordering on the field of fractions of the ring. That will give an ordered field that contains $mathbb{Q}[x]$ as a subring, and as such contains elements larger than all the ordinary natural numbers.
There are other algebraic constructions that give other non-Archimedean ordered fields, as well.
An example from logic
In logic, the comapctness theorem says that if we have a set of axioms so that every finite subset of the axioms is consistent on its own, then the whole set is consistent. Take our axioms to include the axioms of an ordered ring, and also the axiom $z > n$ for each $n$. For any finite subset of these axioms, we can choose a value of $z$ large enough to make that finite subset true in $mathbb{Q}$. So there is a model in which all the axioms are true at once. In that model, whatever $z$ is must be an element larger than every natural number.
In nonstandard analysis
In nonstandard analysis, we work with a field that extends of the reals in which there are infinitesimals. For this purpose, an infinitesimal is an element $delta$ so that $0 < delta$ but $delta < 1/n$ for each ordinary natural number $n$. Then if $delta$ is infinitesimal, $1/delta$ exists (because $delta not = 0$, and $1/delta$ is larger than $n$ for all $n$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A concrete example
Consider the ring $mathbb{Q}[x]$ of polynomials over $mathbb{Q}$. These can be linearly ordered as in this answer, in a way that preserves the ordering of the rationals. Now we have the "regular" naturals in this field: 1, 2,3, and so on. But the polynomial $x$ is larger than all of these, and $x^2$ is larger than $x$, and so on. So in this ring there are elements that are greater than all the ordinary natural numbers.
By standard abstract algebra, the ordering on $mathbb{Q}[x]$ can be extended to an ordering on the field of fractions of the ring. That will give an ordered field that contains $mathbb{Q}[x]$ as a subring, and as such contains elements larger than all the ordinary natural numbers.
There are other algebraic constructions that give other non-Archimedean ordered fields, as well.
An example from logic
In logic, the comapctness theorem says that if we have a set of axioms so that every finite subset of the axioms is consistent on its own, then the whole set is consistent. Take our axioms to include the axioms of an ordered ring, and also the axiom $z > n$ for each $n$. For any finite subset of these axioms, we can choose a value of $z$ large enough to make that finite subset true in $mathbb{Q}$. So there is a model in which all the axioms are true at once. In that model, whatever $z$ is must be an element larger than every natural number.
In nonstandard analysis
In nonstandard analysis, we work with a field that extends of the reals in which there are infinitesimals. For this purpose, an infinitesimal is an element $delta$ so that $0 < delta$ but $delta < 1/n$ for each ordinary natural number $n$. Then if $delta$ is infinitesimal, $1/delta$ exists (because $delta not = 0$, and $1/delta$ is larger than $n$ for all $n$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
A concrete example
Consider the ring $mathbb{Q}[x]$ of polynomials over $mathbb{Q}$. These can be linearly ordered as in this answer, in a way that preserves the ordering of the rationals. Now we have the "regular" naturals in this field: 1, 2,3, and so on. But the polynomial $x$ is larger than all of these, and $x^2$ is larger than $x$, and so on. So in this ring there are elements that are greater than all the ordinary natural numbers.
By standard abstract algebra, the ordering on $mathbb{Q}[x]$ can be extended to an ordering on the field of fractions of the ring. That will give an ordered field that contains $mathbb{Q}[x]$ as a subring, and as such contains elements larger than all the ordinary natural numbers.
There are other algebraic constructions that give other non-Archimedean ordered fields, as well.
An example from logic
In logic, the comapctness theorem says that if we have a set of axioms so that every finite subset of the axioms is consistent on its own, then the whole set is consistent. Take our axioms to include the axioms of an ordered ring, and also the axiom $z > n$ for each $n$. For any finite subset of these axioms, we can choose a value of $z$ large enough to make that finite subset true in $mathbb{Q}$. So there is a model in which all the axioms are true at once. In that model, whatever $z$ is must be an element larger than every natural number.
In nonstandard analysis
In nonstandard analysis, we work with a field that extends of the reals in which there are infinitesimals. For this purpose, an infinitesimal is an element $delta$ so that $0 < delta$ but $delta < 1/n$ for each ordinary natural number $n$. Then if $delta$ is infinitesimal, $1/delta$ exists (because $delta not = 0$, and $1/delta$ is larger than $n$ for all $n$.
$endgroup$
A concrete example
Consider the ring $mathbb{Q}[x]$ of polynomials over $mathbb{Q}$. These can be linearly ordered as in this answer, in a way that preserves the ordering of the rationals. Now we have the "regular" naturals in this field: 1, 2,3, and so on. But the polynomial $x$ is larger than all of these, and $x^2$ is larger than $x$, and so on. So in this ring there are elements that are greater than all the ordinary natural numbers.
By standard abstract algebra, the ordering on $mathbb{Q}[x]$ can be extended to an ordering on the field of fractions of the ring. That will give an ordered field that contains $mathbb{Q}[x]$ as a subring, and as such contains elements larger than all the ordinary natural numbers.
There are other algebraic constructions that give other non-Archimedean ordered fields, as well.
An example from logic
In logic, the comapctness theorem says that if we have a set of axioms so that every finite subset of the axioms is consistent on its own, then the whole set is consistent. Take our axioms to include the axioms of an ordered ring, and also the axiom $z > n$ for each $n$. For any finite subset of these axioms, we can choose a value of $z$ large enough to make that finite subset true in $mathbb{Q}$. So there is a model in which all the axioms are true at once. In that model, whatever $z$ is must be an element larger than every natural number.
In nonstandard analysis
In nonstandard analysis, we work with a field that extends of the reals in which there are infinitesimals. For this purpose, an infinitesimal is an element $delta$ so that $0 < delta$ but $delta < 1/n$ for each ordinary natural number $n$. Then if $delta$ is infinitesimal, $1/delta$ exists (because $delta not = 0$, and $1/delta$ is larger than $n$ for all $n$.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
Carl MummertCarl Mummert
66.4k7132247
66.4k7132247
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb{Q}$. I don't know what the standard notation for this is, but let's denote it by $mathbb{Q}(x)$.
$$mathbb{Q}(x)=left{frac{p(x)}{q(x)}: p(x),q(x)inmathbb{Q}[x] text{ and } q(x)neq 0 text{ is a monic polynomial.}right}$$
To define an order on it, define $f>g$ if and only if $f-g>0$ where a rational function is positive if and only if its leading coefficient of the numerator is positive. I leave the process of checking the axioms to you.
Now compare $frac{x}{1}$ and $frac{n}{1}$. We see that $frac{x}{1}-frac{n}{1}=frac{x-n}{1}>0$. So, $x$ is bigger than any natural number $n$.
Edit: After Carl Mummert's wonderful comment, it is worthy to add that in order to have a well-defined order, we should first set the leading coefficient in the denominator to be $1$ by multiplying the whole fraction by the inverse of this coefficient if necessary. So, we can assume that $q(x)$ is monic. Now, we can see that the order we have defined is also an extension of the order on $mathbb{Q}$ as well.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This is a good example but the order is hard to define; $4/(-1)$ is not a positive element, but the leading coefficient of the numerator is positive.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CarlMummert You're right. But the OP hasn't said that the order too must be an extension of the order on rational numbers. I mean it's open to interpretation. The OP's question reads "ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$". This is an ordered field and it's an extension of $mathbb{Q}$. But you're absolutely right that the orders seem not to be compatible which is a very good point. I think if we add an extra hypothesis that in cases like what you mentioned, $4/(-1)$ should be seen as $(-4)/1$, the issue might be resolved but I'm not sure. What do you think?
$endgroup$
– stressed out
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I see your point; I was thinking of extensions that preserve the ordering. There is a way to do this by looking at cross products, the same way we extend the order of the integers to the order of the rationals: $a/b < c/d$ if $ad < bc$. So that reduces to the problem to ordering $mathbb{Q}[x]$. as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1920165/…
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I was thinking the same way as @CarlMummert, although yes, it is subject to interpretation. Just as "field extension of $mathbb Q$" is a shorthand for "field extension of the field $mathbb Q$", I interpreted "ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$" as shorthand for "ordered field extension of the ordered field $mathbb Q$"
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, I think that resolves it.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
56 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb{Q}$. I don't know what the standard notation for this is, but let's denote it by $mathbb{Q}(x)$.
$$mathbb{Q}(x)=left{frac{p(x)}{q(x)}: p(x),q(x)inmathbb{Q}[x] text{ and } q(x)neq 0 text{ is a monic polynomial.}right}$$
To define an order on it, define $f>g$ if and only if $f-g>0$ where a rational function is positive if and only if its leading coefficient of the numerator is positive. I leave the process of checking the axioms to you.
Now compare $frac{x}{1}$ and $frac{n}{1}$. We see that $frac{x}{1}-frac{n}{1}=frac{x-n}{1}>0$. So, $x$ is bigger than any natural number $n$.
Edit: After Carl Mummert's wonderful comment, it is worthy to add that in order to have a well-defined order, we should first set the leading coefficient in the denominator to be $1$ by multiplying the whole fraction by the inverse of this coefficient if necessary. So, we can assume that $q(x)$ is monic. Now, we can see that the order we have defined is also an extension of the order on $mathbb{Q}$ as well.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This is a good example but the order is hard to define; $4/(-1)$ is not a positive element, but the leading coefficient of the numerator is positive.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CarlMummert You're right. But the OP hasn't said that the order too must be an extension of the order on rational numbers. I mean it's open to interpretation. The OP's question reads "ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$". This is an ordered field and it's an extension of $mathbb{Q}$. But you're absolutely right that the orders seem not to be compatible which is a very good point. I think if we add an extra hypothesis that in cases like what you mentioned, $4/(-1)$ should be seen as $(-4)/1$, the issue might be resolved but I'm not sure. What do you think?
$endgroup$
– stressed out
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I see your point; I was thinking of extensions that preserve the ordering. There is a way to do this by looking at cross products, the same way we extend the order of the integers to the order of the rationals: $a/b < c/d$ if $ad < bc$. So that reduces to the problem to ordering $mathbb{Q}[x]$. as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1920165/…
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I was thinking the same way as @CarlMummert, although yes, it is subject to interpretation. Just as "field extension of $mathbb Q$" is a shorthand for "field extension of the field $mathbb Q$", I interpreted "ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$" as shorthand for "ordered field extension of the ordered field $mathbb Q$"
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, I think that resolves it.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
56 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb{Q}$. I don't know what the standard notation for this is, but let's denote it by $mathbb{Q}(x)$.
$$mathbb{Q}(x)=left{frac{p(x)}{q(x)}: p(x),q(x)inmathbb{Q}[x] text{ and } q(x)neq 0 text{ is a monic polynomial.}right}$$
To define an order on it, define $f>g$ if and only if $f-g>0$ where a rational function is positive if and only if its leading coefficient of the numerator is positive. I leave the process of checking the axioms to you.
Now compare $frac{x}{1}$ and $frac{n}{1}$. We see that $frac{x}{1}-frac{n}{1}=frac{x-n}{1}>0$. So, $x$ is bigger than any natural number $n$.
Edit: After Carl Mummert's wonderful comment, it is worthy to add that in order to have a well-defined order, we should first set the leading coefficient in the denominator to be $1$ by multiplying the whole fraction by the inverse of this coefficient if necessary. So, we can assume that $q(x)$ is monic. Now, we can see that the order we have defined is also an extension of the order on $mathbb{Q}$ as well.
$endgroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb{Q}$. I don't know what the standard notation for this is, but let's denote it by $mathbb{Q}(x)$.
$$mathbb{Q}(x)=left{frac{p(x)}{q(x)}: p(x),q(x)inmathbb{Q}[x] text{ and } q(x)neq 0 text{ is a monic polynomial.}right}$$
To define an order on it, define $f>g$ if and only if $f-g>0$ where a rational function is positive if and only if its leading coefficient of the numerator is positive. I leave the process of checking the axioms to you.
Now compare $frac{x}{1}$ and $frac{n}{1}$. We see that $frac{x}{1}-frac{n}{1}=frac{x-n}{1}>0$. So, $x$ is bigger than any natural number $n$.
Edit: After Carl Mummert's wonderful comment, it is worthy to add that in order to have a well-defined order, we should first set the leading coefficient in the denominator to be $1$ by multiplying the whole fraction by the inverse of this coefficient if necessary. So, we can assume that $q(x)$ is monic. Now, we can see that the order we have defined is also an extension of the order on $mathbb{Q}$ as well.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 2 hours ago
stressed outstressed out
4,7741634
4,7741634
$begingroup$
This is a good example but the order is hard to define; $4/(-1)$ is not a positive element, but the leading coefficient of the numerator is positive.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CarlMummert You're right. But the OP hasn't said that the order too must be an extension of the order on rational numbers. I mean it's open to interpretation. The OP's question reads "ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$". This is an ordered field and it's an extension of $mathbb{Q}$. But you're absolutely right that the orders seem not to be compatible which is a very good point. I think if we add an extra hypothesis that in cases like what you mentioned, $4/(-1)$ should be seen as $(-4)/1$, the issue might be resolved but I'm not sure. What do you think?
$endgroup$
– stressed out
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I see your point; I was thinking of extensions that preserve the ordering. There is a way to do this by looking at cross products, the same way we extend the order of the integers to the order of the rationals: $a/b < c/d$ if $ad < bc$. So that reduces to the problem to ordering $mathbb{Q}[x]$. as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1920165/…
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– Carl Mummert
1 hour ago
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I was thinking the same way as @CarlMummert, although yes, it is subject to interpretation. Just as "field extension of $mathbb Q$" is a shorthand for "field extension of the field $mathbb Q$", I interpreted "ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$" as shorthand for "ordered field extension of the ordered field $mathbb Q$"
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– Lee Mosher
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, I think that resolves it.
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– Carl Mummert
56 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
This is a good example but the order is hard to define; $4/(-1)$ is not a positive element, but the leading coefficient of the numerator is positive.
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– Carl Mummert
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CarlMummert You're right. But the OP hasn't said that the order too must be an extension of the order on rational numbers. I mean it's open to interpretation. The OP's question reads "ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$". This is an ordered field and it's an extension of $mathbb{Q}$. But you're absolutely right that the orders seem not to be compatible which is a very good point. I think if we add an extra hypothesis that in cases like what you mentioned, $4/(-1)$ should be seen as $(-4)/1$, the issue might be resolved but I'm not sure. What do you think?
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– stressed out
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I see your point; I was thinking of extensions that preserve the ordering. There is a way to do this by looking at cross products, the same way we extend the order of the integers to the order of the rationals: $a/b < c/d$ if $ad < bc$. So that reduces to the problem to ordering $mathbb{Q}[x]$. as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1920165/…
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I was thinking the same way as @CarlMummert, although yes, it is subject to interpretation. Just as "field extension of $mathbb Q$" is a shorthand for "field extension of the field $mathbb Q$", I interpreted "ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$" as shorthand for "ordered field extension of the ordered field $mathbb Q$"
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
1 hour ago
1
$begingroup$
Yes, I think that resolves it.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
This is a good example but the order is hard to define; $4/(-1)$ is not a positive element, but the leading coefficient of the numerator is positive.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
This is a good example but the order is hard to define; $4/(-1)$ is not a positive element, but the leading coefficient of the numerator is positive.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@CarlMummert You're right. But the OP hasn't said that the order too must be an extension of the order on rational numbers. I mean it's open to interpretation. The OP's question reads "ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$". This is an ordered field and it's an extension of $mathbb{Q}$. But you're absolutely right that the orders seem not to be compatible which is a very good point. I think if we add an extra hypothesis that in cases like what you mentioned, $4/(-1)$ should be seen as $(-4)/1$, the issue might be resolved but I'm not sure. What do you think?
$endgroup$
– stressed out
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
@CarlMummert You're right. But the OP hasn't said that the order too must be an extension of the order on rational numbers. I mean it's open to interpretation. The OP's question reads "ordered field extensions of $mathbb{Q}$". This is an ordered field and it's an extension of $mathbb{Q}$. But you're absolutely right that the orders seem not to be compatible which is a very good point. I think if we add an extra hypothesis that in cases like what you mentioned, $4/(-1)$ should be seen as $(-4)/1$, the issue might be resolved but I'm not sure. What do you think?
$endgroup$
– stressed out
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I see your point; I was thinking of extensions that preserve the ordering. There is a way to do this by looking at cross products, the same way we extend the order of the integers to the order of the rationals: $a/b < c/d$ if $ad < bc$. So that reduces to the problem to ordering $mathbb{Q}[x]$. as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1920165/…
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I see your point; I was thinking of extensions that preserve the ordering. There is a way to do this by looking at cross products, the same way we extend the order of the integers to the order of the rationals: $a/b < c/d$ if $ad < bc$. So that reduces to the problem to ordering $mathbb{Q}[x]$. as in math.stackexchange.com/questions/1920165/…
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I was thinking the same way as @CarlMummert, although yes, it is subject to interpretation. Just as "field extension of $mathbb Q$" is a shorthand for "field extension of the field $mathbb Q$", I interpreted "ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$" as shorthand for "ordered field extension of the ordered field $mathbb Q$"
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
I was thinking the same way as @CarlMummert, although yes, it is subject to interpretation. Just as "field extension of $mathbb Q$" is a shorthand for "field extension of the field $mathbb Q$", I interpreted "ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$" as shorthand for "ordered field extension of the ordered field $mathbb Q$"
$endgroup$
– Lee Mosher
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Yes, I think that resolves it.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes, I think that resolves it.
$endgroup$
– Carl Mummert
56 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Here's a well known construction of an ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$ that comes from logic and from nonstandard analysis, as mentioned in the answer of @CarlMummert.
Choose a nonprincipal ultrafilter on the natural numbers $mathbb N$: an ultrafilter is a finitely additive, $0,1$-valued measure defined on all subsets $A subset mathbb N$, such that $mathbb N$ has measure $1$; and $mu$ is nonprincipal if ${i}$ has measure zero for every $i in mathbb N$. The existence of a nonprincipal ultrafilter is an exercise in applying the axiom of choice.
Consider the set $mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$ which is the set of all sequences of rational numbers. Define an equivalence relation on this set: given $underline x = (x_i)$ and $underline y = (y_i) in mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$, define $underline x approx underline y$ if the set of indices $i$ for which $x_i = y_i$ has measure $1$. Let $[underline x] = [x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$ denote the equivalence class of $underline x = (x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$. Define addition and multiplication in the obvious way: $[underline x] + [underline y] = [underline z]$ means that the set of indices for which $x_i + y_i = z_i$ has measure $1$, and similarly for multiplication. Define inequality similarly: $[underline x] < [underline y]$ if the set of indices for which $x_i < y_i$ has measure $1$. Check that everything is well-defined, and that you get an ordered field.
To embed $mathbb Q$ into this field, map the rational number $q$ to $[q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,...]$. Check that this is an embedding of ordered fields.
To identify a number greater than any natural number, take $[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,...]$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's a well known construction of an ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$ that comes from logic and from nonstandard analysis, as mentioned in the answer of @CarlMummert.
Choose a nonprincipal ultrafilter on the natural numbers $mathbb N$: an ultrafilter is a finitely additive, $0,1$-valued measure defined on all subsets $A subset mathbb N$, such that $mathbb N$ has measure $1$; and $mu$ is nonprincipal if ${i}$ has measure zero for every $i in mathbb N$. The existence of a nonprincipal ultrafilter is an exercise in applying the axiom of choice.
Consider the set $mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$ which is the set of all sequences of rational numbers. Define an equivalence relation on this set: given $underline x = (x_i)$ and $underline y = (y_i) in mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$, define $underline x approx underline y$ if the set of indices $i$ for which $x_i = y_i$ has measure $1$. Let $[underline x] = [x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$ denote the equivalence class of $underline x = (x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$. Define addition and multiplication in the obvious way: $[underline x] + [underline y] = [underline z]$ means that the set of indices for which $x_i + y_i = z_i$ has measure $1$, and similarly for multiplication. Define inequality similarly: $[underline x] < [underline y]$ if the set of indices for which $x_i < y_i$ has measure $1$. Check that everything is well-defined, and that you get an ordered field.
To embed $mathbb Q$ into this field, map the rational number $q$ to $[q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,...]$. Check that this is an embedding of ordered fields.
To identify a number greater than any natural number, take $[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,...]$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's a well known construction of an ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$ that comes from logic and from nonstandard analysis, as mentioned in the answer of @CarlMummert.
Choose a nonprincipal ultrafilter on the natural numbers $mathbb N$: an ultrafilter is a finitely additive, $0,1$-valued measure defined on all subsets $A subset mathbb N$, such that $mathbb N$ has measure $1$; and $mu$ is nonprincipal if ${i}$ has measure zero for every $i in mathbb N$. The existence of a nonprincipal ultrafilter is an exercise in applying the axiom of choice.
Consider the set $mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$ which is the set of all sequences of rational numbers. Define an equivalence relation on this set: given $underline x = (x_i)$ and $underline y = (y_i) in mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$, define $underline x approx underline y$ if the set of indices $i$ for which $x_i = y_i$ has measure $1$. Let $[underline x] = [x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$ denote the equivalence class of $underline x = (x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$. Define addition and multiplication in the obvious way: $[underline x] + [underline y] = [underline z]$ means that the set of indices for which $x_i + y_i = z_i$ has measure $1$, and similarly for multiplication. Define inequality similarly: $[underline x] < [underline y]$ if the set of indices for which $x_i < y_i$ has measure $1$. Check that everything is well-defined, and that you get an ordered field.
To embed $mathbb Q$ into this field, map the rational number $q$ to $[q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,...]$. Check that this is an embedding of ordered fields.
To identify a number greater than any natural number, take $[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,...]$.
$endgroup$
Here's a well known construction of an ordered field extension of $mathbb Q$ that comes from logic and from nonstandard analysis, as mentioned in the answer of @CarlMummert.
Choose a nonprincipal ultrafilter on the natural numbers $mathbb N$: an ultrafilter is a finitely additive, $0,1$-valued measure defined on all subsets $A subset mathbb N$, such that $mathbb N$ has measure $1$; and $mu$ is nonprincipal if ${i}$ has measure zero for every $i in mathbb N$. The existence of a nonprincipal ultrafilter is an exercise in applying the axiom of choice.
Consider the set $mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$ which is the set of all sequences of rational numbers. Define an equivalence relation on this set: given $underline x = (x_i)$ and $underline y = (y_i) in mathbb Q^{mathbb N}$, define $underline x approx underline y$ if the set of indices $i$ for which $x_i = y_i$ has measure $1$. Let $[underline x] = [x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$ denote the equivalence class of $underline x = (x_1,x_2,x_3,...]$. Define addition and multiplication in the obvious way: $[underline x] + [underline y] = [underline z]$ means that the set of indices for which $x_i + y_i = z_i$ has measure $1$, and similarly for multiplication. Define inequality similarly: $[underline x] < [underline y]$ if the set of indices for which $x_i < y_i$ has measure $1$. Check that everything is well-defined, and that you get an ordered field.
To embed $mathbb Q$ into this field, map the rational number $q$ to $[q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,q,...]$. Check that this is an embedding of ordered fields.
To identify a number greater than any natural number, take $[1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,...]$.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
Lee MosherLee Mosher
48.8k33683
48.8k33683
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Consider the field of rational functions over $mathbb Q$, ordered by: $f>g$ if for sufficiently large $x$, $f(x)>g(x)$.
$endgroup$
– Wojowu
2 hours ago
1
$begingroup$
Sounds as though he might be talking about something related to the hyperreal system, which has infinitesimals which (i) are smaller than any real number while being bigger than $0$ and (ii) have reciprocals bigger than any real number but smaller than $infty$?
$endgroup$
– timtfj
2 hours ago