In the time of the mishna, were there Jewish cities without courts?












3















In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.



At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?










share|improve this question



























    3















    In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.



    At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?










    share|improve this question

























      3












      3








      3








      In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.



      At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?










      share|improve this question














      In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.



      At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?







      history beit-din-court tractate-sotah cities






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      asked 1 hour ago









      Monica CellioMonica Cellio

      38.3k582268




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          2 Answers
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          1














          A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6




          And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.




          Bartenura




          מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,




          1. עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin


          2. ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
            front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges


          3. ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash


          4. ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors


          5. ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists


          6. ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists


          7. ושני עדים. two witnesses


          8. ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses


          9. ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses


          10. ושני גבאים, two donation officiers


          11. ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them


          12. ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
            = 120








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            1














            The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.



            (See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)



            Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.



            The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.



            The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.



            (The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)



            This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.



            In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)



            I hope this helps.





            share





















            • 1





              The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)

              – Monica Cellio
              4 mins ago













            • Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.

              – Monica Cellio
              4 mins ago











            • Right on both comments.

              – David Kenner
              2 mins ago



















            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes








            2 Answers
            2






            active

            oldest

            votes









            active

            oldest

            votes






            active

            oldest

            votes









            1














            A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6




            And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.




            Bartenura




            מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,




            1. עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin


            2. ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
              front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges


            3. ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash


            4. ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors


            5. ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists


            6. ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists


            7. ושני עדים. two witnesses


            8. ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses


            9. ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses


            10. ושני גבאים, two donation officiers


            11. ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them


            12. ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
              = 120








            share|improve this answer






























              1














              A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6




              And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.




              Bartenura




              מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,




              1. עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin


              2. ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
                front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges


              3. ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash


              4. ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors


              5. ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists


              6. ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists


              7. ושני עדים. two witnesses


              8. ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses


              9. ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses


              10. ושני גבאים, two donation officiers


              11. ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them


              12. ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
                = 120








              share|improve this answer




























                1












                1








                1







                A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6




                And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.




                Bartenura




                מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,




                1. עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin


                2. ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
                  front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges


                3. ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash


                4. ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors


                5. ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists


                6. ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists


                7. ושני עדים. two witnesses


                8. ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses


                9. ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses


                10. ושני גבאים, two donation officiers


                11. ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them


                12. ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
                  = 120








                share|improve this answer















                A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6




                And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.




                Bartenura




                מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,




                1. עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin


                2. ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
                  front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges


                3. ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash


                4. ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors


                5. ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists


                6. ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists


                7. ושני עדים. two witnesses


                8. ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses


                9. ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses


                10. ושני גבאים, two donation officiers


                11. ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them


                12. ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
                  = 120









                share|improve this answer














                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer








                edited 51 mins ago

























                answered 1 hour ago









                koutykouty

                16.5k32048




                16.5k32048























                    1














                    The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.



                    (See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)



                    Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.



                    The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.



                    The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.



                    (The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)



                    This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.



                    In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)



                    I hope this helps.





                    share





















                    • 1





                      The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago













                    • Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago











                    • Right on both comments.

                      – David Kenner
                      2 mins ago
















                    1














                    The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.



                    (See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)



                    Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.



                    The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.



                    The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.



                    (The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)



                    This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.



                    In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)



                    I hope this helps.





                    share





















                    • 1





                      The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago













                    • Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago











                    • Right on both comments.

                      – David Kenner
                      2 mins ago














                    1












                    1








                    1







                    The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.



                    (See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)



                    Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.



                    The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.



                    The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.



                    (The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)



                    This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.



                    In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)



                    I hope this helps.





                    share















                    The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.



                    (See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)



                    Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.



                    The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.



                    The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.



                    (The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)



                    This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.



                    In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)



                    I hope this helps.






                    share













                    share


                    share








                    edited 2 mins ago

























                    answered 9 mins ago









                    David KennerDavid Kenner

                    8,278927




                    8,278927








                    • 1





                      The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago













                    • Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago











                    • Right on both comments.

                      – David Kenner
                      2 mins ago














                    • 1





                      The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago













                    • Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.

                      – Monica Cellio
                      4 mins ago











                    • Right on both comments.

                      – David Kenner
                      2 mins ago








                    1




                    1





                    The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)

                    – Monica Cellio
                    4 mins ago







                    The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)

                    – Monica Cellio
                    4 mins ago















                    Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.

                    – Monica Cellio
                    4 mins ago





                    Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.

                    – Monica Cellio
                    4 mins ago













                    Right on both comments.

                    – David Kenner
                    2 mins ago





                    Right on both comments.

                    – David Kenner
                    2 mins ago



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