Why aren’t continuous functions defined the other way around?
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Continuity of function $f:Xto Y$ from topological space $X$ to $Y$ is defined by saying that for any open set $U_Y$, $f^{-1}(U_Y)$ is also an open set.
Intuitively, I find this weird. If we interpret “open set” informally as “a set whose elements are nearby eachother” (indeed it is a set which is a neighbourhood of all its elements), then it makes intuitive sense to say that a continuous function $f$ is a function that does not “rip elements away from its neighbours”, i.e. if you input an open set $U_X$ (a set whose elements are “nearby eachother”), then this should not produce a set where some elements are “not nearby eachother”, i.e. it should produce an open set.
So is there an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example) of why we don’t define continuity as “for any open set $U_X$, $f(U_X)$ is an open set”?
general-topology
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show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Continuity of function $f:Xto Y$ from topological space $X$ to $Y$ is defined by saying that for any open set $U_Y$, $f^{-1}(U_Y)$ is also an open set.
Intuitively, I find this weird. If we interpret “open set” informally as “a set whose elements are nearby eachother” (indeed it is a set which is a neighbourhood of all its elements), then it makes intuitive sense to say that a continuous function $f$ is a function that does not “rip elements away from its neighbours”, i.e. if you input an open set $U_X$ (a set whose elements are “nearby eachother”), then this should not produce a set where some elements are “not nearby eachother”, i.e. it should produce an open set.
So is there an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example) of why we don’t define continuity as “for any open set $U_X$, $f(U_X)$ is an open set”?
general-topology
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7
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That's called an "open mapping" and it is another thing. For example, the function $fcolon mathbb Rto mathbb R$ defined by $f(x)=x^2$ is not an open mapping. (The image of $(-1, 1)$ is $[0, 1)$). That's perhaps weird, but that's how things are. Now, do you want to give a definition of "continuous function" such that $x^2$ is not continuous? Of course not.
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– Giuseppe Negro
56 mins ago
2
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If you're familiar with the $epsilon$-$delta$ formulation of continuity, that's actually the same thing: you have open sets in the codomain (it contains an $epsilon$-ball around any of its points) which give open sets in the domain (they contain $delta$-balls around any given point).
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– Arthur
52 mins ago
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@Arthur, I anticipated someone was gonna comment that, so I specifically mentioned “an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example)”.
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– user56834
51 mins ago
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Which is why I didn't make it an answer.
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– Arthur
50 mins ago
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Being an open set means that there is wiggle room between you and the complement, so you are in a sense ‘far from the complement’, but that doesn’t mean you are close to other things far from the complement .
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– rschwieb
42 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
$begingroup$
Continuity of function $f:Xto Y$ from topological space $X$ to $Y$ is defined by saying that for any open set $U_Y$, $f^{-1}(U_Y)$ is also an open set.
Intuitively, I find this weird. If we interpret “open set” informally as “a set whose elements are nearby eachother” (indeed it is a set which is a neighbourhood of all its elements), then it makes intuitive sense to say that a continuous function $f$ is a function that does not “rip elements away from its neighbours”, i.e. if you input an open set $U_X$ (a set whose elements are “nearby eachother”), then this should not produce a set where some elements are “not nearby eachother”, i.e. it should produce an open set.
So is there an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example) of why we don’t define continuity as “for any open set $U_X$, $f(U_X)$ is an open set”?
general-topology
$endgroup$
Continuity of function $f:Xto Y$ from topological space $X$ to $Y$ is defined by saying that for any open set $U_Y$, $f^{-1}(U_Y)$ is also an open set.
Intuitively, I find this weird. If we interpret “open set” informally as “a set whose elements are nearby eachother” (indeed it is a set which is a neighbourhood of all its elements), then it makes intuitive sense to say that a continuous function $f$ is a function that does not “rip elements away from its neighbours”, i.e. if you input an open set $U_X$ (a set whose elements are “nearby eachother”), then this should not produce a set where some elements are “not nearby eachother”, i.e. it should produce an open set.
So is there an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example) of why we don’t define continuity as “for any open set $U_X$, $f(U_X)$ is an open set”?
general-topology
general-topology
asked 59 mins ago
user56834user56834
3,31221150
3,31221150
7
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That's called an "open mapping" and it is another thing. For example, the function $fcolon mathbb Rto mathbb R$ defined by $f(x)=x^2$ is not an open mapping. (The image of $(-1, 1)$ is $[0, 1)$). That's perhaps weird, but that's how things are. Now, do you want to give a definition of "continuous function" such that $x^2$ is not continuous? Of course not.
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– Giuseppe Negro
56 mins ago
2
$begingroup$
If you're familiar with the $epsilon$-$delta$ formulation of continuity, that's actually the same thing: you have open sets in the codomain (it contains an $epsilon$-ball around any of its points) which give open sets in the domain (they contain $delta$-balls around any given point).
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– Arthur
52 mins ago
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@Arthur, I anticipated someone was gonna comment that, so I specifically mentioned “an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example)”.
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– user56834
51 mins ago
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Which is why I didn't make it an answer.
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– Arthur
50 mins ago
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Being an open set means that there is wiggle room between you and the complement, so you are in a sense ‘far from the complement’, but that doesn’t mean you are close to other things far from the complement .
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– rschwieb
42 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
7
$begingroup$
That's called an "open mapping" and it is another thing. For example, the function $fcolon mathbb Rto mathbb R$ defined by $f(x)=x^2$ is not an open mapping. (The image of $(-1, 1)$ is $[0, 1)$). That's perhaps weird, but that's how things are. Now, do you want to give a definition of "continuous function" such that $x^2$ is not continuous? Of course not.
$endgroup$
– Giuseppe Negro
56 mins ago
2
$begingroup$
If you're familiar with the $epsilon$-$delta$ formulation of continuity, that's actually the same thing: you have open sets in the codomain (it contains an $epsilon$-ball around any of its points) which give open sets in the domain (they contain $delta$-balls around any given point).
$endgroup$
– Arthur
52 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Arthur, I anticipated someone was gonna comment that, so I specifically mentioned “an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example)”.
$endgroup$
– user56834
51 mins ago
$begingroup$
Which is why I didn't make it an answer.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
Being an open set means that there is wiggle room between you and the complement, so you are in a sense ‘far from the complement’, but that doesn’t mean you are close to other things far from the complement .
$endgroup$
– rschwieb
42 mins ago
7
7
$begingroup$
That's called an "open mapping" and it is another thing. For example, the function $fcolon mathbb Rto mathbb R$ defined by $f(x)=x^2$ is not an open mapping. (The image of $(-1, 1)$ is $[0, 1)$). That's perhaps weird, but that's how things are. Now, do you want to give a definition of "continuous function" such that $x^2$ is not continuous? Of course not.
$endgroup$
– Giuseppe Negro
56 mins ago
$begingroup$
That's called an "open mapping" and it is another thing. For example, the function $fcolon mathbb Rto mathbb R$ defined by $f(x)=x^2$ is not an open mapping. (The image of $(-1, 1)$ is $[0, 1)$). That's perhaps weird, but that's how things are. Now, do you want to give a definition of "continuous function" such that $x^2$ is not continuous? Of course not.
$endgroup$
– Giuseppe Negro
56 mins ago
2
2
$begingroup$
If you're familiar with the $epsilon$-$delta$ formulation of continuity, that's actually the same thing: you have open sets in the codomain (it contains an $epsilon$-ball around any of its points) which give open sets in the domain (they contain $delta$-balls around any given point).
$endgroup$
– Arthur
52 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you're familiar with the $epsilon$-$delta$ formulation of continuity, that's actually the same thing: you have open sets in the codomain (it contains an $epsilon$-ball around any of its points) which give open sets in the domain (they contain $delta$-balls around any given point).
$endgroup$
– Arthur
52 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Arthur, I anticipated someone was gonna comment that, so I specifically mentioned “an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example)”.
$endgroup$
– user56834
51 mins ago
$begingroup$
@Arthur, I anticipated someone was gonna comment that, so I specifically mentioned “an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example)”.
$endgroup$
– user56834
51 mins ago
$begingroup$
Which is why I didn't make it an answer.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
Which is why I didn't make it an answer.
$endgroup$
– Arthur
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
Being an open set means that there is wiggle room between you and the complement, so you are in a sense ‘far from the complement’, but that doesn’t mean you are close to other things far from the complement .
$endgroup$
– rschwieb
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
Being an open set means that there is wiggle room between you and the complement, so you are in a sense ‘far from the complement’, but that doesn’t mean you are close to other things far from the complement .
$endgroup$
– rschwieb
42 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
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The problem with your intuition is that an "open set" is not "a set whose elements are nearby each other". For example, considering the real numbers with the standard topology, the set $(0, infty)$ contains elements arbitrarily far away from each other, while ${0}$ contains elements extremely nearby each other.
A better intuition is: an open set $X$ is a set such that if $x in X$, then all points that are close to $x$ are also in $X$. This shows why the "forward definition" doesn't work: just because you are taking all points close to some $x$, does not mean that you should map onto all points close to $f(x)$ -- it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$. But what does hitting only points close to $f(x)$ mean? It means that if you take all points $U$ close to $f(x)$, then $f^{-1}(U)$ should include all points close to $x$.
If you try to make the ideas in the previous paragraph precise and formal, you end up with the ordinary definition of continuity.
Edit: From the comments:
I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”.
Let us look at the converse, and take $f$ discontinuous. Informally, this means that there are $x$, $y$, which are close together, such that $f(x)$ and $f(y)$ are not close together. (Of course, to make this formal, you need to take at least one of $x$ or $y$ to be a sequence or even a net, etc.)
My intuition of an open set says: let $X$ be an open set, then $x in X$ if and only if $y in X$. Now let's see if the "forward definition of continuous" lets us prove that $f$ is discontinuous. Let's take any open set $X$. If $x notin X$ then also $y notin X$, and this doesn't seem to go anywhere. So let's look at open $X$ with $x, y in X$. Then $f(X)$ is also open, and therefore $f(x), f(y) in f(X)$ -- but this is precisely not what we wanted to prove.
Now let's apply my intuition to the "backward definition of continuous". Because $f(x), f(y)$ are far apart, there is an open set containing $f(x)$ but not $f(y)$. Let's call it $Y$. Then we have $x in f^{-1}(Y)$, but $y notin f^{-1}(Y)$. Thus $f^{-1}(Y)$ is not an open set, and $f$ is discontinuous.
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I very much like the general idea of this answer. But it seems to me that one part of the intuition is problematic: “it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$”. There can be many points that are not close to $f(x)$ and it’ll still be an open set. (E.g if you take the union between points “close to $f(x)$ and some open set 10 thousand miles away).
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– user56834
45 mins ago
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Yes, but since you can take any neighbourhood of $f(x)$, it still works. In your example, you can also take the points close to $f(x)$ and not more than 3 miles away, and this will still have an open preimage. The point really is in the "for all"
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– Max
42 mins ago
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Also, I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”. It rather seems to me to capture the intuitiye (but misplaced) idea of “a discontinuous function pushes unconnected points together)”
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– user56834
41 mins ago
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To keep my answer concise, I was deliberately sloppy in the middle part. The problem is that "a set of points close to $x$" is a topologically incoherent notion: in e.g. a Hausdorff topology, there is no $y neq x$ such that "$y$ is close to $x$" could be given real meaning. You really want to be talking about "sufficient closeness" for an ever shifting notion of closeness, and you need to talk about all the points in the open set at once (e.g. for the point ${0}$ it would not matter if a continuous mapping $f$ had $f^{-1}((-1, 1))$ be a non-open neighborhood of ${0}$).
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– Mees de Vries
39 mins ago
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Let me edit the answer to address the discontinuous part.
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– Mees de Vries
38 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
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To say that “$mathcal U=f^{-1}(mathcal O)$ is not open” for the open set $mathcal O$ means that the complement of $mathcal U$ approaches a point $xinmathcal U$.
But since $mathcal O$ is open, the images of points outside of $mathcal U$ approaching $x$ cannot approach the image of $x$. Thus $mathcal O$ witnesses that $x$ has been torn from $mathcal U^c$ by $f$.
The definition successfully carries the intuition to mention.... but perhaps its ”contravariantness” is tripping up your acceptance of the intuition.
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
The problem with your intuition is that an "open set" is not "a set whose elements are nearby each other". For example, considering the real numbers with the standard topology, the set $(0, infty)$ contains elements arbitrarily far away from each other, while ${0}$ contains elements extremely nearby each other.
A better intuition is: an open set $X$ is a set such that if $x in X$, then all points that are close to $x$ are also in $X$. This shows why the "forward definition" doesn't work: just because you are taking all points close to some $x$, does not mean that you should map onto all points close to $f(x)$ -- it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$. But what does hitting only points close to $f(x)$ mean? It means that if you take all points $U$ close to $f(x)$, then $f^{-1}(U)$ should include all points close to $x$.
If you try to make the ideas in the previous paragraph precise and formal, you end up with the ordinary definition of continuity.
Edit: From the comments:
I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”.
Let us look at the converse, and take $f$ discontinuous. Informally, this means that there are $x$, $y$, which are close together, such that $f(x)$ and $f(y)$ are not close together. (Of course, to make this formal, you need to take at least one of $x$ or $y$ to be a sequence or even a net, etc.)
My intuition of an open set says: let $X$ be an open set, then $x in X$ if and only if $y in X$. Now let's see if the "forward definition of continuous" lets us prove that $f$ is discontinuous. Let's take any open set $X$. If $x notin X$ then also $y notin X$, and this doesn't seem to go anywhere. So let's look at open $X$ with $x, y in X$. Then $f(X)$ is also open, and therefore $f(x), f(y) in f(X)$ -- but this is precisely not what we wanted to prove.
Now let's apply my intuition to the "backward definition of continuous". Because $f(x), f(y)$ are far apart, there is an open set containing $f(x)$ but not $f(y)$. Let's call it $Y$. Then we have $x in f^{-1}(Y)$, but $y notin f^{-1}(Y)$. Thus $f^{-1}(Y)$ is not an open set, and $f$ is discontinuous.
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I very much like the general idea of this answer. But it seems to me that one part of the intuition is problematic: “it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$”. There can be many points that are not close to $f(x)$ and it’ll still be an open set. (E.g if you take the union between points “close to $f(x)$ and some open set 10 thousand miles away).
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– user56834
45 mins ago
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Yes, but since you can take any neighbourhood of $f(x)$, it still works. In your example, you can also take the points close to $f(x)$ and not more than 3 miles away, and this will still have an open preimage. The point really is in the "for all"
$endgroup$
– Max
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
Also, I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”. It rather seems to me to capture the intuitiye (but misplaced) idea of “a discontinuous function pushes unconnected points together)”
$endgroup$
– user56834
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
To keep my answer concise, I was deliberately sloppy in the middle part. The problem is that "a set of points close to $x$" is a topologically incoherent notion: in e.g. a Hausdorff topology, there is no $y neq x$ such that "$y$ is close to $x$" could be given real meaning. You really want to be talking about "sufficient closeness" for an ever shifting notion of closeness, and you need to talk about all the points in the open set at once (e.g. for the point ${0}$ it would not matter if a continuous mapping $f$ had $f^{-1}((-1, 1))$ be a non-open neighborhood of ${0}$).
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
Let me edit the answer to address the discontinuous part.
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
38 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The problem with your intuition is that an "open set" is not "a set whose elements are nearby each other". For example, considering the real numbers with the standard topology, the set $(0, infty)$ contains elements arbitrarily far away from each other, while ${0}$ contains elements extremely nearby each other.
A better intuition is: an open set $X$ is a set such that if $x in X$, then all points that are close to $x$ are also in $X$. This shows why the "forward definition" doesn't work: just because you are taking all points close to some $x$, does not mean that you should map onto all points close to $f(x)$ -- it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$. But what does hitting only points close to $f(x)$ mean? It means that if you take all points $U$ close to $f(x)$, then $f^{-1}(U)$ should include all points close to $x$.
If you try to make the ideas in the previous paragraph precise and formal, you end up with the ordinary definition of continuity.
Edit: From the comments:
I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”.
Let us look at the converse, and take $f$ discontinuous. Informally, this means that there are $x$, $y$, which are close together, such that $f(x)$ and $f(y)$ are not close together. (Of course, to make this formal, you need to take at least one of $x$ or $y$ to be a sequence or even a net, etc.)
My intuition of an open set says: let $X$ be an open set, then $x in X$ if and only if $y in X$. Now let's see if the "forward definition of continuous" lets us prove that $f$ is discontinuous. Let's take any open set $X$. If $x notin X$ then also $y notin X$, and this doesn't seem to go anywhere. So let's look at open $X$ with $x, y in X$. Then $f(X)$ is also open, and therefore $f(x), f(y) in f(X)$ -- but this is precisely not what we wanted to prove.
Now let's apply my intuition to the "backward definition of continuous". Because $f(x), f(y)$ are far apart, there is an open set containing $f(x)$ but not $f(y)$. Let's call it $Y$. Then we have $x in f^{-1}(Y)$, but $y notin f^{-1}(Y)$. Thus $f^{-1}(Y)$ is not an open set, and $f$ is discontinuous.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I very much like the general idea of this answer. But it seems to me that one part of the intuition is problematic: “it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$”. There can be many points that are not close to $f(x)$ and it’ll still be an open set. (E.g if you take the union between points “close to $f(x)$ and some open set 10 thousand miles away).
$endgroup$
– user56834
45 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes, but since you can take any neighbourhood of $f(x)$, it still works. In your example, you can also take the points close to $f(x)$ and not more than 3 miles away, and this will still have an open preimage. The point really is in the "for all"
$endgroup$
– Max
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
Also, I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”. It rather seems to me to capture the intuitiye (but misplaced) idea of “a discontinuous function pushes unconnected points together)”
$endgroup$
– user56834
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
To keep my answer concise, I was deliberately sloppy in the middle part. The problem is that "a set of points close to $x$" is a topologically incoherent notion: in e.g. a Hausdorff topology, there is no $y neq x$ such that "$y$ is close to $x$" could be given real meaning. You really want to be talking about "sufficient closeness" for an ever shifting notion of closeness, and you need to talk about all the points in the open set at once (e.g. for the point ${0}$ it would not matter if a continuous mapping $f$ had $f^{-1}((-1, 1))$ be a non-open neighborhood of ${0}$).
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
Let me edit the answer to address the discontinuous part.
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
38 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The problem with your intuition is that an "open set" is not "a set whose elements are nearby each other". For example, considering the real numbers with the standard topology, the set $(0, infty)$ contains elements arbitrarily far away from each other, while ${0}$ contains elements extremely nearby each other.
A better intuition is: an open set $X$ is a set such that if $x in X$, then all points that are close to $x$ are also in $X$. This shows why the "forward definition" doesn't work: just because you are taking all points close to some $x$, does not mean that you should map onto all points close to $f(x)$ -- it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$. But what does hitting only points close to $f(x)$ mean? It means that if you take all points $U$ close to $f(x)$, then $f^{-1}(U)$ should include all points close to $x$.
If you try to make the ideas in the previous paragraph precise and formal, you end up with the ordinary definition of continuity.
Edit: From the comments:
I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”.
Let us look at the converse, and take $f$ discontinuous. Informally, this means that there are $x$, $y$, which are close together, such that $f(x)$ and $f(y)$ are not close together. (Of course, to make this formal, you need to take at least one of $x$ or $y$ to be a sequence or even a net, etc.)
My intuition of an open set says: let $X$ be an open set, then $x in X$ if and only if $y in X$. Now let's see if the "forward definition of continuous" lets us prove that $f$ is discontinuous. Let's take any open set $X$. If $x notin X$ then also $y notin X$, and this doesn't seem to go anywhere. So let's look at open $X$ with $x, y in X$. Then $f(X)$ is also open, and therefore $f(x), f(y) in f(X)$ -- but this is precisely not what we wanted to prove.
Now let's apply my intuition to the "backward definition of continuous". Because $f(x), f(y)$ are far apart, there is an open set containing $f(x)$ but not $f(y)$. Let's call it $Y$. Then we have $x in f^{-1}(Y)$, but $y notin f^{-1}(Y)$. Thus $f^{-1}(Y)$ is not an open set, and $f$ is discontinuous.
$endgroup$
The problem with your intuition is that an "open set" is not "a set whose elements are nearby each other". For example, considering the real numbers with the standard topology, the set $(0, infty)$ contains elements arbitrarily far away from each other, while ${0}$ contains elements extremely nearby each other.
A better intuition is: an open set $X$ is a set such that if $x in X$, then all points that are close to $x$ are also in $X$. This shows why the "forward definition" doesn't work: just because you are taking all points close to some $x$, does not mean that you should map onto all points close to $f(x)$ -- it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$. But what does hitting only points close to $f(x)$ mean? It means that if you take all points $U$ close to $f(x)$, then $f^{-1}(U)$ should include all points close to $x$.
If you try to make the ideas in the previous paragraph precise and formal, you end up with the ordinary definition of continuity.
Edit: From the comments:
I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”.
Let us look at the converse, and take $f$ discontinuous. Informally, this means that there are $x$, $y$, which are close together, such that $f(x)$ and $f(y)$ are not close together. (Of course, to make this formal, you need to take at least one of $x$ or $y$ to be a sequence or even a net, etc.)
My intuition of an open set says: let $X$ be an open set, then $x in X$ if and only if $y in X$. Now let's see if the "forward definition of continuous" lets us prove that $f$ is discontinuous. Let's take any open set $X$. If $x notin X$ then also $y notin X$, and this doesn't seem to go anywhere. So let's look at open $X$ with $x, y in X$. Then $f(X)$ is also open, and therefore $f(x), f(y) in f(X)$ -- but this is precisely not what we wanted to prove.
Now let's apply my intuition to the "backward definition of continuous". Because $f(x), f(y)$ are far apart, there is an open set containing $f(x)$ but not $f(y)$. Let's call it $Y$. Then we have $x in f^{-1}(Y)$, but $y notin f^{-1}(Y)$. Thus $f^{-1}(Y)$ is not an open set, and $f$ is discontinuous.
edited 27 mins ago
answered 51 mins ago
Mees de VriesMees de Vries
16.8k12654
16.8k12654
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I very much like the general idea of this answer. But it seems to me that one part of the intuition is problematic: “it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$”. There can be many points that are not close to $f(x)$ and it’ll still be an open set. (E.g if you take the union between points “close to $f(x)$ and some open set 10 thousand miles away).
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– user56834
45 mins ago
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Yes, but since you can take any neighbourhood of $f(x)$, it still works. In your example, you can also take the points close to $f(x)$ and not more than 3 miles away, and this will still have an open preimage. The point really is in the "for all"
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– Max
42 mins ago
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Also, I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”. It rather seems to me to capture the intuitiye (but misplaced) idea of “a discontinuous function pushes unconnected points together)”
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– user56834
41 mins ago
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To keep my answer concise, I was deliberately sloppy in the middle part. The problem is that "a set of points close to $x$" is a topologically incoherent notion: in e.g. a Hausdorff topology, there is no $y neq x$ such that "$y$ is close to $x$" could be given real meaning. You really want to be talking about "sufficient closeness" for an ever shifting notion of closeness, and you need to talk about all the points in the open set at once (e.g. for the point ${0}$ it would not matter if a continuous mapping $f$ had $f^{-1}((-1, 1))$ be a non-open neighborhood of ${0}$).
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– Mees de Vries
39 mins ago
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Let me edit the answer to address the discontinuous part.
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– Mees de Vries
38 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I very much like the general idea of this answer. But it seems to me that one part of the intuition is problematic: “it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$”. There can be many points that are not close to $f(x)$ and it’ll still be an open set. (E.g if you take the union between points “close to $f(x)$ and some open set 10 thousand miles away).
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– user56834
45 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes, but since you can take any neighbourhood of $f(x)$, it still works. In your example, you can also take the points close to $f(x)$ and not more than 3 miles away, and this will still have an open preimage. The point really is in the "for all"
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– Max
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
Also, I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”. It rather seems to me to capture the intuitiye (but misplaced) idea of “a discontinuous function pushes unconnected points together)”
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– user56834
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
To keep my answer concise, I was deliberately sloppy in the middle part. The problem is that "a set of points close to $x$" is a topologically incoherent notion: in e.g. a Hausdorff topology, there is no $y neq x$ such that "$y$ is close to $x$" could be given real meaning. You really want to be talking about "sufficient closeness" for an ever shifting notion of closeness, and you need to talk about all the points in the open set at once (e.g. for the point ${0}$ it would not matter if a continuous mapping $f$ had $f^{-1}((-1, 1))$ be a non-open neighborhood of ${0}$).
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– Mees de Vries
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
Let me edit the answer to address the discontinuous part.
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– Mees de Vries
38 mins ago
$begingroup$
I very much like the general idea of this answer. But it seems to me that one part of the intuition is problematic: “it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$”. There can be many points that are not close to $f(x)$ and it’ll still be an open set. (E.g if you take the union between points “close to $f(x)$ and some open set 10 thousand miles away).
$endgroup$
– user56834
45 mins ago
$begingroup$
I very much like the general idea of this answer. But it seems to me that one part of the intuition is problematic: “it just means that you should hit only points close to $f(x)$”. There can be many points that are not close to $f(x)$ and it’ll still be an open set. (E.g if you take the union between points “close to $f(x)$ and some open set 10 thousand miles away).
$endgroup$
– user56834
45 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes, but since you can take any neighbourhood of $f(x)$, it still works. In your example, you can also take the points close to $f(x)$ and not more than 3 miles away, and this will still have an open preimage. The point really is in the "for all"
$endgroup$
– Max
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
Yes, but since you can take any neighbourhood of $f(x)$, it still works. In your example, you can also take the points close to $f(x)$ and not more than 3 miles away, and this will still have an open preimage. The point really is in the "for all"
$endgroup$
– Max
42 mins ago
$begingroup$
Also, I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”. It rather seems to me to capture the intuitiye (but misplaced) idea of “a discontinuous function pushes unconnected points together)”
$endgroup$
– user56834
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
Also, I still find your intuition hard to reconcile with the idea of “a discontinuous function rips points apart”. It rather seems to me to capture the intuitiye (but misplaced) idea of “a discontinuous function pushes unconnected points together)”
$endgroup$
– user56834
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
To keep my answer concise, I was deliberately sloppy in the middle part. The problem is that "a set of points close to $x$" is a topologically incoherent notion: in e.g. a Hausdorff topology, there is no $y neq x$ such that "$y$ is close to $x$" could be given real meaning. You really want to be talking about "sufficient closeness" for an ever shifting notion of closeness, and you need to talk about all the points in the open set at once (e.g. for the point ${0}$ it would not matter if a continuous mapping $f$ had $f^{-1}((-1, 1))$ be a non-open neighborhood of ${0}$).
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
To keep my answer concise, I was deliberately sloppy in the middle part. The problem is that "a set of points close to $x$" is a topologically incoherent notion: in e.g. a Hausdorff topology, there is no $y neq x$ such that "$y$ is close to $x$" could be given real meaning. You really want to be talking about "sufficient closeness" for an ever shifting notion of closeness, and you need to talk about all the points in the open set at once (e.g. for the point ${0}$ it would not matter if a continuous mapping $f$ had $f^{-1}((-1, 1))$ be a non-open neighborhood of ${0}$).
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
39 mins ago
$begingroup$
Let me edit the answer to address the discontinuous part.
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
38 mins ago
$begingroup$
Let me edit the answer to address the discontinuous part.
$endgroup$
– Mees de Vries
38 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
To say that “$mathcal U=f^{-1}(mathcal O)$ is not open” for the open set $mathcal O$ means that the complement of $mathcal U$ approaches a point $xinmathcal U$.
But since $mathcal O$ is open, the images of points outside of $mathcal U$ approaching $x$ cannot approach the image of $x$. Thus $mathcal O$ witnesses that $x$ has been torn from $mathcal U^c$ by $f$.
The definition successfully carries the intuition to mention.... but perhaps its ”contravariantness” is tripping up your acceptance of the intuition.
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add a comment |
$begingroup$
To say that “$mathcal U=f^{-1}(mathcal O)$ is not open” for the open set $mathcal O$ means that the complement of $mathcal U$ approaches a point $xinmathcal U$.
But since $mathcal O$ is open, the images of points outside of $mathcal U$ approaching $x$ cannot approach the image of $x$. Thus $mathcal O$ witnesses that $x$ has been torn from $mathcal U^c$ by $f$.
The definition successfully carries the intuition to mention.... but perhaps its ”contravariantness” is tripping up your acceptance of the intuition.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
To say that “$mathcal U=f^{-1}(mathcal O)$ is not open” for the open set $mathcal O$ means that the complement of $mathcal U$ approaches a point $xinmathcal U$.
But since $mathcal O$ is open, the images of points outside of $mathcal U$ approaching $x$ cannot approach the image of $x$. Thus $mathcal O$ witnesses that $x$ has been torn from $mathcal U^c$ by $f$.
The definition successfully carries the intuition to mention.... but perhaps its ”contravariantness” is tripping up your acceptance of the intuition.
$endgroup$
To say that “$mathcal U=f^{-1}(mathcal O)$ is not open” for the open set $mathcal O$ means that the complement of $mathcal U$ approaches a point $xinmathcal U$.
But since $mathcal O$ is open, the images of points outside of $mathcal U$ approaching $x$ cannot approach the image of $x$. Thus $mathcal O$ witnesses that $x$ has been torn from $mathcal U^c$ by $f$.
The definition successfully carries the intuition to mention.... but perhaps its ”contravariantness” is tripping up your acceptance of the intuition.
edited 21 mins ago
answered 28 mins ago
rschwiebrschwieb
106k12102249
106k12102249
add a comment |
add a comment |
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7
$begingroup$
That's called an "open mapping" and it is another thing. For example, the function $fcolon mathbb Rto mathbb R$ defined by $f(x)=x^2$ is not an open mapping. (The image of $(-1, 1)$ is $[0, 1)$). That's perhaps weird, but that's how things are. Now, do you want to give a definition of "continuous function" such that $x^2$ is not continuous? Of course not.
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– Giuseppe Negro
56 mins ago
2
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If you're familiar with the $epsilon$-$delta$ formulation of continuity, that's actually the same thing: you have open sets in the codomain (it contains an $epsilon$-ball around any of its points) which give open sets in the domain (they contain $delta$-balls around any given point).
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– Arthur
52 mins ago
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@Arthur, I anticipated someone was gonna comment that, so I specifically mentioned “an intuitive explanation at this level of abstraction (i.e. without reference to metric spaces for example)”.
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– user56834
51 mins ago
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Which is why I didn't make it an answer.
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– Arthur
50 mins ago
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Being an open set means that there is wiggle room between you and the complement, so you are in a sense ‘far from the complement’, but that doesn’t mean you are close to other things far from the complement .
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– rschwieb
42 mins ago