Could this Scherzo by Beethoven be considered to be a fugue?
I have listened to the scherzo of Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 2 no. 3 and it is very fugal in nature. It even has a fugal exposition(though it is dominant, dominant, dominant, dominant of dominant, in terms of the key in which each voice appears, which Bach would never do), which I think is unusual, especially for an early Beethoven piece. Now I'm not saying fugal passages aren't common in Beethoven's pieces because they are. But they usually don't have a true exposition and are thus more like a canon in that sense than a fugue(except that a canon wouldn't have countersubjects, just the same melody delayed and maybe also transposed). This scherzo actually has a true exposition.
Albeit, the trio is very much arpeggios over a bass line which is not fugal at all. But the Scherzo part of the Scherzo and Trio movement is fugal in nature.
Could this Scherzo actually be considered a fugue since it has not only imitation and countersubjects(well at least 1 after the first repeat), but a full exposition(albeit it breaks some Baroque 4 part counterpoint rules, but Beethoven was an innovative composer who broke the rules because they deserved to be broken)?
piano beethoven fugue
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
add a comment |
I have listened to the scherzo of Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 2 no. 3 and it is very fugal in nature. It even has a fugal exposition(though it is dominant, dominant, dominant, dominant of dominant, in terms of the key in which each voice appears, which Bach would never do), which I think is unusual, especially for an early Beethoven piece. Now I'm not saying fugal passages aren't common in Beethoven's pieces because they are. But they usually don't have a true exposition and are thus more like a canon in that sense than a fugue(except that a canon wouldn't have countersubjects, just the same melody delayed and maybe also transposed). This scherzo actually has a true exposition.
Albeit, the trio is very much arpeggios over a bass line which is not fugal at all. But the Scherzo part of the Scherzo and Trio movement is fugal in nature.
Could this Scherzo actually be considered a fugue since it has not only imitation and countersubjects(well at least 1 after the first repeat), but a full exposition(albeit it breaks some Baroque 4 part counterpoint rules, but Beethoven was an innovative composer who broke the rules because they deserved to be broken)?
piano beethoven fugue
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
add a comment |
I have listened to the scherzo of Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 2 no. 3 and it is very fugal in nature. It even has a fugal exposition(though it is dominant, dominant, dominant, dominant of dominant, in terms of the key in which each voice appears, which Bach would never do), which I think is unusual, especially for an early Beethoven piece. Now I'm not saying fugal passages aren't common in Beethoven's pieces because they are. But they usually don't have a true exposition and are thus more like a canon in that sense than a fugue(except that a canon wouldn't have countersubjects, just the same melody delayed and maybe also transposed). This scherzo actually has a true exposition.
Albeit, the trio is very much arpeggios over a bass line which is not fugal at all. But the Scherzo part of the Scherzo and Trio movement is fugal in nature.
Could this Scherzo actually be considered a fugue since it has not only imitation and countersubjects(well at least 1 after the first repeat), but a full exposition(albeit it breaks some Baroque 4 part counterpoint rules, but Beethoven was an innovative composer who broke the rules because they deserved to be broken)?
piano beethoven fugue
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
I have listened to the scherzo of Beethoven's Piano Sonata op. 2 no. 3 and it is very fugal in nature. It even has a fugal exposition(though it is dominant, dominant, dominant, dominant of dominant, in terms of the key in which each voice appears, which Bach would never do), which I think is unusual, especially for an early Beethoven piece. Now I'm not saying fugal passages aren't common in Beethoven's pieces because they are. But they usually don't have a true exposition and are thus more like a canon in that sense than a fugue(except that a canon wouldn't have countersubjects, just the same melody delayed and maybe also transposed). This scherzo actually has a true exposition.
Albeit, the trio is very much arpeggios over a bass line which is not fugal at all. But the Scherzo part of the Scherzo and Trio movement is fugal in nature.
Could this Scherzo actually be considered a fugue since it has not only imitation and countersubjects(well at least 1 after the first repeat), but a full exposition(albeit it breaks some Baroque 4 part counterpoint rules, but Beethoven was an innovative composer who broke the rules because they deserved to be broken)?
piano beethoven fugue
piano beethoven fugue
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
asked 1 hour ago
CatersCaters
1,0671821
1,0671821
add a comment |
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
This is not a fugue, nor a fugato section within a larger work. I get the comparison with a fugal exposition but I think this is being too loose. Too many expectations of a fugal exposition aren't present. The music doesn't preserve the polyphonic texture, indeed as much of the scherzo's texture is homophonic. This is just free imitation.
The last movements of Op 101 and Op 106 are examples of genuine fugal writing in Beethoven's sonatas.
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81554%2fcould-this-scherzo-by-beethoven-be-considered-to-be-a-fugue%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
This is not a fugue, nor a fugato section within a larger work. I get the comparison with a fugal exposition but I think this is being too loose. Too many expectations of a fugal exposition aren't present. The music doesn't preserve the polyphonic texture, indeed as much of the scherzo's texture is homophonic. This is just free imitation.
The last movements of Op 101 and Op 106 are examples of genuine fugal writing in Beethoven's sonatas.
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
add a comment |
This is not a fugue, nor a fugato section within a larger work. I get the comparison with a fugal exposition but I think this is being too loose. Too many expectations of a fugal exposition aren't present. The music doesn't preserve the polyphonic texture, indeed as much of the scherzo's texture is homophonic. This is just free imitation.
The last movements of Op 101 and Op 106 are examples of genuine fugal writing in Beethoven's sonatas.
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
add a comment |
This is not a fugue, nor a fugato section within a larger work. I get the comparison with a fugal exposition but I think this is being too loose. Too many expectations of a fugal exposition aren't present. The music doesn't preserve the polyphonic texture, indeed as much of the scherzo's texture is homophonic. This is just free imitation.
The last movements of Op 101 and Op 106 are examples of genuine fugal writing in Beethoven's sonatas.
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
This is not a fugue, nor a fugato section within a larger work. I get the comparison with a fugal exposition but I think this is being too loose. Too many expectations of a fugal exposition aren't present. The music doesn't preserve the polyphonic texture, indeed as much of the scherzo's texture is homophonic. This is just free imitation.
The last movements of Op 101 and Op 106 are examples of genuine fugal writing in Beethoven's sonatas.
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
answered 43 mins ago
repletereplete
2,480518
2,480518
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81554%2fcould-this-scherzo-by-beethoven-be-considered-to-be-a-fugue%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
