Fellow student seems to be chasing rainbows. Should I step in?












13















I am currently writing my bachelor's thesis, and share advisors with a fellow student, who is also working in the same office as I am. We exchange daily about our progress.



I am under the impression that his work is going nowhere. He is working on a topic that has no previous work available, and according to him, direct verification on whether his research is useful is not possible. An indirect approach using yet another students' algorithm showed worse results in combination with the work of the student in question. To acquire this information, both students spent a large amount of time that could have been spent towards writing their theses.



He is somewhat backed up by his (our) supervisor, but I feel this is largely because the supervisor wants this research to end up in a peer-reviewed publication, even though there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet.



I have the impression that continuing this path will worsen the thesis outcome for my fellow student, as he is facing a deadline to turn in his thesis, but spends a lot of time trying things out and interpreting essentially bad results to show something positive.



Since I sympathize with him, I would like to intervene and talk bluntly about the issues written out above. I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is. In addition, since our supervisor has a different opinion and more experience, it could very well be that I'll be wrong in the end.




  • Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?


I imagine this sort of thing happens more often, even with more experienced academics, as confirmation bias seems to be a somewhat common issue.




  • How are similar problems usually handled in academia? Are people like my fellow student in question left alone to their own judgement, or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas? Do people criticize each others' research a lot?










share|improve this question


















  • 3





    I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is It is your place to correct him or, at least, discuss your concerns (which might be wrong), you don't need to be "above" someone to do that.

    – user2768
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    Offering unsolicited opinions about someone else's work is a violation of interpersonal boundaries. If you are asked for your opinion or guidance, then share your concerns honestly and openly but also tactfully. But, until you are asked for your opinion, it's not your place to share it.

    – Matt
    4 hours ago






  • 3





    I do see a huge difference between stating your concerns and trying to correct someone!

    – cbeleites
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    +1 for realizing that you may be wrong after all

    – cbeleites
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    @Matt If I was working on a project and somebody else had a very good reason that my approach would fail, I would definitely want to know rather than waste years of my life. But it can be a delicate issue, so of course it should be approached with tact.

    – Jair Taylor
    1 hour ago
















13















I am currently writing my bachelor's thesis, and share advisors with a fellow student, who is also working in the same office as I am. We exchange daily about our progress.



I am under the impression that his work is going nowhere. He is working on a topic that has no previous work available, and according to him, direct verification on whether his research is useful is not possible. An indirect approach using yet another students' algorithm showed worse results in combination with the work of the student in question. To acquire this information, both students spent a large amount of time that could have been spent towards writing their theses.



He is somewhat backed up by his (our) supervisor, but I feel this is largely because the supervisor wants this research to end up in a peer-reviewed publication, even though there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet.



I have the impression that continuing this path will worsen the thesis outcome for my fellow student, as he is facing a deadline to turn in his thesis, but spends a lot of time trying things out and interpreting essentially bad results to show something positive.



Since I sympathize with him, I would like to intervene and talk bluntly about the issues written out above. I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is. In addition, since our supervisor has a different opinion and more experience, it could very well be that I'll be wrong in the end.




  • Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?


I imagine this sort of thing happens more often, even with more experienced academics, as confirmation bias seems to be a somewhat common issue.




  • How are similar problems usually handled in academia? Are people like my fellow student in question left alone to their own judgement, or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas? Do people criticize each others' research a lot?










share|improve this question


















  • 3





    I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is It is your place to correct him or, at least, discuss your concerns (which might be wrong), you don't need to be "above" someone to do that.

    – user2768
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    Offering unsolicited opinions about someone else's work is a violation of interpersonal boundaries. If you are asked for your opinion or guidance, then share your concerns honestly and openly but also tactfully. But, until you are asked for your opinion, it's not your place to share it.

    – Matt
    4 hours ago






  • 3





    I do see a huge difference between stating your concerns and trying to correct someone!

    – cbeleites
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    +1 for realizing that you may be wrong after all

    – cbeleites
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    @Matt If I was working on a project and somebody else had a very good reason that my approach would fail, I would definitely want to know rather than waste years of my life. But it can be a delicate issue, so of course it should be approached with tact.

    – Jair Taylor
    1 hour ago














13












13








13








I am currently writing my bachelor's thesis, and share advisors with a fellow student, who is also working in the same office as I am. We exchange daily about our progress.



I am under the impression that his work is going nowhere. He is working on a topic that has no previous work available, and according to him, direct verification on whether his research is useful is not possible. An indirect approach using yet another students' algorithm showed worse results in combination with the work of the student in question. To acquire this information, both students spent a large amount of time that could have been spent towards writing their theses.



He is somewhat backed up by his (our) supervisor, but I feel this is largely because the supervisor wants this research to end up in a peer-reviewed publication, even though there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet.



I have the impression that continuing this path will worsen the thesis outcome for my fellow student, as he is facing a deadline to turn in his thesis, but spends a lot of time trying things out and interpreting essentially bad results to show something positive.



Since I sympathize with him, I would like to intervene and talk bluntly about the issues written out above. I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is. In addition, since our supervisor has a different opinion and more experience, it could very well be that I'll be wrong in the end.




  • Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?


I imagine this sort of thing happens more often, even with more experienced academics, as confirmation bias seems to be a somewhat common issue.




  • How are similar problems usually handled in academia? Are people like my fellow student in question left alone to their own judgement, or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas? Do people criticize each others' research a lot?










share|improve this question














I am currently writing my bachelor's thesis, and share advisors with a fellow student, who is also working in the same office as I am. We exchange daily about our progress.



I am under the impression that his work is going nowhere. He is working on a topic that has no previous work available, and according to him, direct verification on whether his research is useful is not possible. An indirect approach using yet another students' algorithm showed worse results in combination with the work of the student in question. To acquire this information, both students spent a large amount of time that could have been spent towards writing their theses.



He is somewhat backed up by his (our) supervisor, but I feel this is largely because the supervisor wants this research to end up in a peer-reviewed publication, even though there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet.



I have the impression that continuing this path will worsen the thesis outcome for my fellow student, as he is facing a deadline to turn in his thesis, but spends a lot of time trying things out and interpreting essentially bad results to show something positive.



Since I sympathize with him, I would like to intervene and talk bluntly about the issues written out above. I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is. In addition, since our supervisor has a different opinion and more experience, it could very well be that I'll be wrong in the end.




  • Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?


I imagine this sort of thing happens more often, even with more experienced academics, as confirmation bias seems to be a somewhat common issue.




  • How are similar problems usually handled in academia? Are people like my fellow student in question left alone to their own judgement, or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas? Do people criticize each others' research a lot?







research-process advisor research-undergraduate academic-life






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 11 hours ago









Jonas SchwarzJonas Schwarz

1,1091623




1,1091623








  • 3





    I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is It is your place to correct him or, at least, discuss your concerns (which might be wrong), you don't need to be "above" someone to do that.

    – user2768
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    Offering unsolicited opinions about someone else's work is a violation of interpersonal boundaries. If you are asked for your opinion or guidance, then share your concerns honestly and openly but also tactfully. But, until you are asked for your opinion, it's not your place to share it.

    – Matt
    4 hours ago






  • 3





    I do see a huge difference between stating your concerns and trying to correct someone!

    – cbeleites
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    +1 for realizing that you may be wrong after all

    – cbeleites
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    @Matt If I was working on a project and somebody else had a very good reason that my approach would fail, I would definitely want to know rather than waste years of my life. But it can be a delicate issue, so of course it should be approached with tact.

    – Jair Taylor
    1 hour ago














  • 3





    I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is It is your place to correct him or, at least, discuss your concerns (which might be wrong), you don't need to be "above" someone to do that.

    – user2768
    10 hours ago






  • 2





    Offering unsolicited opinions about someone else's work is a violation of interpersonal boundaries. If you are asked for your opinion or guidance, then share your concerns honestly and openly but also tactfully. But, until you are asked for your opinion, it's not your place to share it.

    – Matt
    4 hours ago






  • 3





    I do see a huge difference between stating your concerns and trying to correct someone!

    – cbeleites
    3 hours ago






  • 1





    +1 for realizing that you may be wrong after all

    – cbeleites
    2 hours ago






  • 2





    @Matt If I was working on a project and somebody else had a very good reason that my approach would fail, I would definitely want to know rather than waste years of my life. But it can be a delicate issue, so of course it should be approached with tact.

    – Jair Taylor
    1 hour ago








3




3





I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is It is your place to correct him or, at least, discuss your concerns (which might be wrong), you don't need to be "above" someone to do that.

– user2768
10 hours ago





I do understand, however, that it is not my place to correct him, as we are at the same stage of our careers, and I am about as inexperienced as he is It is your place to correct him or, at least, discuss your concerns (which might be wrong), you don't need to be "above" someone to do that.

– user2768
10 hours ago




2




2





Offering unsolicited opinions about someone else's work is a violation of interpersonal boundaries. If you are asked for your opinion or guidance, then share your concerns honestly and openly but also tactfully. But, until you are asked for your opinion, it's not your place to share it.

– Matt
4 hours ago





Offering unsolicited opinions about someone else's work is a violation of interpersonal boundaries. If you are asked for your opinion or guidance, then share your concerns honestly and openly but also tactfully. But, until you are asked for your opinion, it's not your place to share it.

– Matt
4 hours ago




3




3





I do see a huge difference between stating your concerns and trying to correct someone!

– cbeleites
3 hours ago





I do see a huge difference between stating your concerns and trying to correct someone!

– cbeleites
3 hours ago




1




1





+1 for realizing that you may be wrong after all

– cbeleites
2 hours ago





+1 for realizing that you may be wrong after all

– cbeleites
2 hours ago




2




2





@Matt If I was working on a project and somebody else had a very good reason that my approach would fail, I would definitely want to know rather than waste years of my life. But it can be a delicate issue, so of course it should be approached with tact.

– Jair Taylor
1 hour ago





@Matt If I was working on a project and somebody else had a very good reason that my approach would fail, I would definitely want to know rather than waste years of my life. But it can be a delicate issue, so of course it should be approached with tact.

– Jair Taylor
1 hour ago










6 Answers
6






active

oldest

votes


















12















Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?




Discuss your concerns with your peer.




How are similar problems usually handled in academia?




Through discussion.




Are people like my fellow student...left alone to their own
judgement,




Largely, yes, but...




or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas?




...in an ideal world colleagues (who they've discussed their work with) will try to bring them back on track.




Do people criticize each others' research a lot?




Yes! Constructive criticism is central to the research process (unconstructive criticism is unfortunately common).






share|improve this answer































    7














    It seems your main concern about your colleague's research is that the results are not "useful". I'm not sure what it means to you that the results aren't "useful" - is your colleague doing something that hasn't been tried before? If so, the work may be "useful" even if only to rule out a particular approach, or to clarify problems with a particular approach.



    For example: suppose I have an idea to use X to address problem Y. It turns out that the state of the art, Z, is a much more efficient and closer to optimal solution to Y than X. However, by trying out X, I at least am able to 1) rule out the approach, and 2) gain some insight into why X does not work as well as Z for problem Y, what features of problem Y suggest it is not amenable to solution by X, etc. These are "useful" results (especially in the context of a bachelor's thesis).



    Now, suppose I have a colleague who is in this situation, but who is still trying to somehow make X into a good (or better than Z) solution for Y. I would probably (in the course of normal discussions about our research) say something to my colleague like, "I think the most interesting part of your research is what it teaches us about problem Y, why X initially seemed like a good solution, and why Z turns out to be much better than X. If I were in your position, I would focus on that aspect as my main contribution, especially with a thesis deadline coming up." Often, people are so close to their research (whether their results are promising or not) that they may not realize what parts of it could be most interesting to the broader research community. This kind of feedback (from anyone - supervisor or colleague!) can be helpful.






    share|improve this answer































      3














      I would, gently, make your point known. Make it clear your point is in sympathy for him, not in directing him or arguing with him. Perhaps it will help the fellow. Perhaps not. If he doesn't want to listen, back off and just let the guy take his lesson. But I would probably go ahead and give him the heads up. At least he can consider the issue.



      P.s. I think your instincts are good here. Project selection (reasonable scope, available resources, etc.) is a key to success in research. Just "doing what the advisor suggests" is not independent. You always have to decide if it is a good idea to work on a project someone suggests. Time is finite. Life is finite.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





















      • I'm in Germany (just as OP seems to be). In my experience, this level of independence would not be expected for a bachelor thesis (many supervisors and the time frame also wouldn't allow it). I'm going by the rule of thumb that the student has to do their own work, but a bachelor thesis is guided, a master thesis should not require guidance. Even for PhD theses, the leeway for the canditate selecting their project can be quite small in practice, depending on project funding/description (just as in real research life afterwards).

        – cbeleites
        1 hour ago











      • Yes and no, on the guidance. There is a line between servile following and disregarding any input. I would argue you can/should have a perspective (just as an intelligent, adult, human) on the likelihood of success of your project. These things can be negotiated. You can modify scope, push back, decide a different advisor, etc. And in the end...it's your time. Gotta look out for yourself.

        – guest
        1 hour ago






      • 1





        Sure. Maybe most of our different perception of the situation here is that I'm not yet sure how good OP's judgement of their neighbour's likelihood of success is. I did get the impression that OP misunderstands thesis success as positive or useful (?) results whereas the thesis committee is to judge whether the student did sound science.

        – cbeleites
        1 hour ago











      • Oh...I had a German speaking relative who lived behind the Iron Curtain, for a few years. He said..."well, they can't vote in elections so they vote with their feet". Something to consider...

        – guest
        1 hour ago













      • cbeleites, I just said he (OP) should bring up the issue. "At least he (student) can consider the issue." This is not an assertion of Euclidean surety. Capisce?

        – guest
        1 hour ago





















      1














      You shouldn't interfere. Getting trapped into rabbit holes is part of the research process. Learning how to get of one on your own is part of the experience. It's a bit like trying learning to walk without falling; or walking only on a perfect surface.



      Sure, someone could hold your hand all the time; point you the obstacles on your way etc. The point of research is to gain autonomy in your thought process.



      Your supervisor probably knows what's going on but won't step until it's absolutely necessary. If you are asked for help, do share your views.



      In academia this is handled by the researcher requesting feedback from his/her supervisor, from his peers, presenting at workshops and conferences etc.



      For now your best help would be just to listen to him, and ask questions about his research without judgment of the results.






      share|improve this answer


























      • This seems like an awfully wasteful stance...

        – user2768
        8 hours ago











      • @user2768 counter question, how do you know you have gone deep enough in exploring a possibility? The truth is you never know. In the OP's question it can be probably very easily clarified, but the further you go into a research career the less you know if a given path is right or not (e.g. the less people would be able to tell you if you're right or not). You need to rely in your own instincts as to weather to go deeper or not; and these instincts are only developed through experience. Thus why rely on others, when you can develop your skills?

        – Koenig Lear
        7 hours ago








      • 2





        @user2768 I argue that going down rabbit holes is useful, you may discover useful things. A lot of useful research has come out of rabbit holes. Non-euclidian geometry comes to mind.

        – Koenig Lear
        6 hours ago






      • 1





        I don't think it's wasteful. Rabbit holes can be an important part of the learning experience. Allow the adviser to be the guide. Don't assume just because you don't see value that there isn't any.

        – scrappedcola
        6 hours ago






      • 1





        @user2768 Don't forget one basic fact: if you know in advance how what you are doing will turn out, then you are not doing research.

        – alephzero
        1 hour ago





















      1














      Not getting nice (positive) results during a thesis is, well, not as nice as getting positive results.



      It often also means more work for the student: after all, no nice results could be due to either




      • the previously unknown reality just really not being that way*, or

      • the student not being up to their task.


      As the thesis is part of an exam, the student has (or feels pressured) to make sure the lack of nice results is not ascribed to their inability. Hence the additional work to make sure no examiner gets the wrong idea.



      But it is perfectly possible to demonstrate sound scientific working (which after all is the exam task) while showing how something does not work. There is IMHO nothing inherently scientifically bad in their thesis as you describe it.



      BTW, I'm speaking as someone who got a perfectly fine Diplom on a thesis showing how the approach suggested by my supervisor did not work out. By now I can even tell, why ;-) - and it triggered the better part of my PhD thesis and is still a pet rearch topic of mine years later.



      Bottomline is that in this part of your description I do not see anything that clearly indicates** a need for "correction".

      There may be a need for encouragement and understanding that that thesis may be even more stressing than other theses are, though.





      That being said, what kind of raises a standard red flag is the approaching thesis deadline. Most students I've seen got in trouble with this deadline and the writing up of the thesis.



      Maybe a buddy system in your office could help? As you already update each other regularly, maybe you could bring up the idea whether it would be good for both of you to remind each other of actually writing your theses?
      (Regardless of results, e.g. theory can usually be written up rather early.)





      * It was quite an eye-opener to me when someone from a funding agency once told me that they would fund projects only if they estimated the probability of failure to achieve the proposed [whatever] at least 80 %. At the same time, I'd have said that the inner-academic view of just such projects was that they almost always succeed...



      ** Clearly as in I'm sure the problem is with your fellow student's thesis and not triggered by a misunderstanding of what a thesis should be and what the odds of doing sience are. This is partially triggered by your writing




      • "interpreting essentially bad results": the results may be negative or not be what is desired, but the only way they can be bad here is if they are wrong because of bad science.

      • "there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet". Usefulness is not a useful criterion to judge the value of the scientific work here. Results can of course be valid or invalid, but it's not the results that can suggest they are themselves valid (by being positive or nice) - validity has to be established independently of the outcome. The important question for validity and the exam is: does the student do sound science or not?


      Of course, this could also be a bad thesis, just like a thesis with nice and "useful" results that is scientifically unsound.






      share|improve this answer































        1














        Your co-ed seems to be passionate about his research, and according to you it is original. His supervisor seems to be satisfied with his work, so far. Positive results are not neccessary for a bachelor's thesis, and results are not usually expected to be published. I don't see a major problem here. Certainly no reason to "intervene"! So if you are interested in his work, ask about it, have him explain it to you, maybe bring up ideas, offer to proof-read whatever he has already. But don't add any pressure.






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.





















        • Exactly. Bachelor theses are a great way to do a proof of concept for high risk ideas and it's no problem if it doesn't result in anything more than the student learning something and knowing that the project doesn't work in the way envisioned.

          – DSVA
          7 mins ago











        Your Answer








        StackExchange.ready(function() {
        var channelOptions = {
        tags: "".split(" "),
        id: "415"
        };
        initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

        StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
        // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
        if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
        StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
        createEditor();
        });
        }
        else {
        createEditor();
        }
        });

        function createEditor() {
        StackExchange.prepareEditor({
        heartbeatType: 'answer',
        autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
        convertImagesToLinks: true,
        noModals: true,
        showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
        reputationToPostImages: 10,
        bindNavPrevention: true,
        postfix: "",
        imageUploader: {
        brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
        contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
        allowUrls: true
        },
        noCode: true, onDemand: true,
        discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
        ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
        });


        }
        });














        draft saved

        draft discarded


















        StackExchange.ready(
        function () {
        StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2facademia.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f123759%2ffellow-student-seems-to-be-chasing-rainbows-should-i-step-in%23new-answer', 'question_page');
        }
        );

        Post as a guest















        Required, but never shown

























        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes








        6 Answers
        6






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        12















        Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?




        Discuss your concerns with your peer.




        How are similar problems usually handled in academia?




        Through discussion.




        Are people like my fellow student...left alone to their own
        judgement,




        Largely, yes, but...




        or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas?




        ...in an ideal world colleagues (who they've discussed their work with) will try to bring them back on track.




        Do people criticize each others' research a lot?




        Yes! Constructive criticism is central to the research process (unconstructive criticism is unfortunately common).






        share|improve this answer




























          12















          Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?




          Discuss your concerns with your peer.




          How are similar problems usually handled in academia?




          Through discussion.




          Are people like my fellow student...left alone to their own
          judgement,




          Largely, yes, but...




          or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas?




          ...in an ideal world colleagues (who they've discussed their work with) will try to bring them back on track.




          Do people criticize each others' research a lot?




          Yes! Constructive criticism is central to the research process (unconstructive criticism is unfortunately common).






          share|improve this answer


























            12












            12








            12








            Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?




            Discuss your concerns with your peer.




            How are similar problems usually handled in academia?




            Through discussion.




            Are people like my fellow student...left alone to their own
            judgement,




            Largely, yes, but...




            or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas?




            ...in an ideal world colleagues (who they've discussed their work with) will try to bring them back on track.




            Do people criticize each others' research a lot?




            Yes! Constructive criticism is central to the research process (unconstructive criticism is unfortunately common).






            share|improve this answer














            Which kind of interaction, if any, is ethical and reasonable for me to engage in?




            Discuss your concerns with your peer.




            How are similar problems usually handled in academia?




            Through discussion.




            Are people like my fellow student...left alone to their own
            judgement,




            Largely, yes, but...




            or do co-academics talk them out of seemingly bad ideas?




            ...in an ideal world colleagues (who they've discussed their work with) will try to bring them back on track.




            Do people criticize each others' research a lot?




            Yes! Constructive criticism is central to the research process (unconstructive criticism is unfortunately common).







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 10 hours ago









            user2768user2768

            12.5k23054




            12.5k23054























                7














                It seems your main concern about your colleague's research is that the results are not "useful". I'm not sure what it means to you that the results aren't "useful" - is your colleague doing something that hasn't been tried before? If so, the work may be "useful" even if only to rule out a particular approach, or to clarify problems with a particular approach.



                For example: suppose I have an idea to use X to address problem Y. It turns out that the state of the art, Z, is a much more efficient and closer to optimal solution to Y than X. However, by trying out X, I at least am able to 1) rule out the approach, and 2) gain some insight into why X does not work as well as Z for problem Y, what features of problem Y suggest it is not amenable to solution by X, etc. These are "useful" results (especially in the context of a bachelor's thesis).



                Now, suppose I have a colleague who is in this situation, but who is still trying to somehow make X into a good (or better than Z) solution for Y. I would probably (in the course of normal discussions about our research) say something to my colleague like, "I think the most interesting part of your research is what it teaches us about problem Y, why X initially seemed like a good solution, and why Z turns out to be much better than X. If I were in your position, I would focus on that aspect as my main contribution, especially with a thesis deadline coming up." Often, people are so close to their research (whether their results are promising or not) that they may not realize what parts of it could be most interesting to the broader research community. This kind of feedback (from anyone - supervisor or colleague!) can be helpful.






                share|improve this answer




























                  7














                  It seems your main concern about your colleague's research is that the results are not "useful". I'm not sure what it means to you that the results aren't "useful" - is your colleague doing something that hasn't been tried before? If so, the work may be "useful" even if only to rule out a particular approach, or to clarify problems with a particular approach.



                  For example: suppose I have an idea to use X to address problem Y. It turns out that the state of the art, Z, is a much more efficient and closer to optimal solution to Y than X. However, by trying out X, I at least am able to 1) rule out the approach, and 2) gain some insight into why X does not work as well as Z for problem Y, what features of problem Y suggest it is not amenable to solution by X, etc. These are "useful" results (especially in the context of a bachelor's thesis).



                  Now, suppose I have a colleague who is in this situation, but who is still trying to somehow make X into a good (or better than Z) solution for Y. I would probably (in the course of normal discussions about our research) say something to my colleague like, "I think the most interesting part of your research is what it teaches us about problem Y, why X initially seemed like a good solution, and why Z turns out to be much better than X. If I were in your position, I would focus on that aspect as my main contribution, especially with a thesis deadline coming up." Often, people are so close to their research (whether their results are promising or not) that they may not realize what parts of it could be most interesting to the broader research community. This kind of feedback (from anyone - supervisor or colleague!) can be helpful.






                  share|improve this answer


























                    7












                    7








                    7







                    It seems your main concern about your colleague's research is that the results are not "useful". I'm not sure what it means to you that the results aren't "useful" - is your colleague doing something that hasn't been tried before? If so, the work may be "useful" even if only to rule out a particular approach, or to clarify problems with a particular approach.



                    For example: suppose I have an idea to use X to address problem Y. It turns out that the state of the art, Z, is a much more efficient and closer to optimal solution to Y than X. However, by trying out X, I at least am able to 1) rule out the approach, and 2) gain some insight into why X does not work as well as Z for problem Y, what features of problem Y suggest it is not amenable to solution by X, etc. These are "useful" results (especially in the context of a bachelor's thesis).



                    Now, suppose I have a colleague who is in this situation, but who is still trying to somehow make X into a good (or better than Z) solution for Y. I would probably (in the course of normal discussions about our research) say something to my colleague like, "I think the most interesting part of your research is what it teaches us about problem Y, why X initially seemed like a good solution, and why Z turns out to be much better than X. If I were in your position, I would focus on that aspect as my main contribution, especially with a thesis deadline coming up." Often, people are so close to their research (whether their results are promising or not) that they may not realize what parts of it could be most interesting to the broader research community. This kind of feedback (from anyone - supervisor or colleague!) can be helpful.






                    share|improve this answer













                    It seems your main concern about your colleague's research is that the results are not "useful". I'm not sure what it means to you that the results aren't "useful" - is your colleague doing something that hasn't been tried before? If so, the work may be "useful" even if only to rule out a particular approach, or to clarify problems with a particular approach.



                    For example: suppose I have an idea to use X to address problem Y. It turns out that the state of the art, Z, is a much more efficient and closer to optimal solution to Y than X. However, by trying out X, I at least am able to 1) rule out the approach, and 2) gain some insight into why X does not work as well as Z for problem Y, what features of problem Y suggest it is not amenable to solution by X, etc. These are "useful" results (especially in the context of a bachelor's thesis).



                    Now, suppose I have a colleague who is in this situation, but who is still trying to somehow make X into a good (or better than Z) solution for Y. I would probably (in the course of normal discussions about our research) say something to my colleague like, "I think the most interesting part of your research is what it teaches us about problem Y, why X initially seemed like a good solution, and why Z turns out to be much better than X. If I were in your position, I would focus on that aspect as my main contribution, especially with a thesis deadline coming up." Often, people are so close to their research (whether their results are promising or not) that they may not realize what parts of it could be most interesting to the broader research community. This kind of feedback (from anyone - supervisor or colleague!) can be helpful.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 5 hours ago









                    ff524ff524

                    95.3k43389421




                    95.3k43389421























                        3














                        I would, gently, make your point known. Make it clear your point is in sympathy for him, not in directing him or arguing with him. Perhaps it will help the fellow. Perhaps not. If he doesn't want to listen, back off and just let the guy take his lesson. But I would probably go ahead and give him the heads up. At least he can consider the issue.



                        P.s. I think your instincts are good here. Project selection (reasonable scope, available resources, etc.) is a key to success in research. Just "doing what the advisor suggests" is not independent. You always have to decide if it is a good idea to work on a project someone suggests. Time is finite. Life is finite.






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                        • I'm in Germany (just as OP seems to be). In my experience, this level of independence would not be expected for a bachelor thesis (many supervisors and the time frame also wouldn't allow it). I'm going by the rule of thumb that the student has to do their own work, but a bachelor thesis is guided, a master thesis should not require guidance. Even for PhD theses, the leeway for the canditate selecting their project can be quite small in practice, depending on project funding/description (just as in real research life afterwards).

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Yes and no, on the guidance. There is a line between servile following and disregarding any input. I would argue you can/should have a perspective (just as an intelligent, adult, human) on the likelihood of success of your project. These things can be negotiated. You can modify scope, push back, decide a different advisor, etc. And in the end...it's your time. Gotta look out for yourself.

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago






                        • 1





                          Sure. Maybe most of our different perception of the situation here is that I'm not yet sure how good OP's judgement of their neighbour's likelihood of success is. I did get the impression that OP misunderstands thesis success as positive or useful (?) results whereas the thesis committee is to judge whether the student did sound science.

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Oh...I had a German speaking relative who lived behind the Iron Curtain, for a few years. He said..."well, they can't vote in elections so they vote with their feet". Something to consider...

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago













                        • cbeleites, I just said he (OP) should bring up the issue. "At least he (student) can consider the issue." This is not an assertion of Euclidean surety. Capisce?

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago


















                        3














                        I would, gently, make your point known. Make it clear your point is in sympathy for him, not in directing him or arguing with him. Perhaps it will help the fellow. Perhaps not. If he doesn't want to listen, back off and just let the guy take his lesson. But I would probably go ahead and give him the heads up. At least he can consider the issue.



                        P.s. I think your instincts are good here. Project selection (reasonable scope, available resources, etc.) is a key to success in research. Just "doing what the advisor suggests" is not independent. You always have to decide if it is a good idea to work on a project someone suggests. Time is finite. Life is finite.






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                        • I'm in Germany (just as OP seems to be). In my experience, this level of independence would not be expected for a bachelor thesis (many supervisors and the time frame also wouldn't allow it). I'm going by the rule of thumb that the student has to do their own work, but a bachelor thesis is guided, a master thesis should not require guidance. Even for PhD theses, the leeway for the canditate selecting their project can be quite small in practice, depending on project funding/description (just as in real research life afterwards).

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Yes and no, on the guidance. There is a line between servile following and disregarding any input. I would argue you can/should have a perspective (just as an intelligent, adult, human) on the likelihood of success of your project. These things can be negotiated. You can modify scope, push back, decide a different advisor, etc. And in the end...it's your time. Gotta look out for yourself.

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago






                        • 1





                          Sure. Maybe most of our different perception of the situation here is that I'm not yet sure how good OP's judgement of their neighbour's likelihood of success is. I did get the impression that OP misunderstands thesis success as positive or useful (?) results whereas the thesis committee is to judge whether the student did sound science.

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Oh...I had a German speaking relative who lived behind the Iron Curtain, for a few years. He said..."well, they can't vote in elections so they vote with their feet". Something to consider...

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago













                        • cbeleites, I just said he (OP) should bring up the issue. "At least he (student) can consider the issue." This is not an assertion of Euclidean surety. Capisce?

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago
















                        3












                        3








                        3







                        I would, gently, make your point known. Make it clear your point is in sympathy for him, not in directing him or arguing with him. Perhaps it will help the fellow. Perhaps not. If he doesn't want to listen, back off and just let the guy take his lesson. But I would probably go ahead and give him the heads up. At least he can consider the issue.



                        P.s. I think your instincts are good here. Project selection (reasonable scope, available resources, etc.) is a key to success in research. Just "doing what the advisor suggests" is not independent. You always have to decide if it is a good idea to work on a project someone suggests. Time is finite. Life is finite.






                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.










                        I would, gently, make your point known. Make it clear your point is in sympathy for him, not in directing him or arguing with him. Perhaps it will help the fellow. Perhaps not. If he doesn't want to listen, back off and just let the guy take his lesson. But I would probably go ahead and give him the heads up. At least he can consider the issue.



                        P.s. I think your instincts are good here. Project selection (reasonable scope, available resources, etc.) is a key to success in research. Just "doing what the advisor suggests" is not independent. You always have to decide if it is a good idea to work on a project someone suggests. Time is finite. Life is finite.







                        share|improve this answer








                        New contributor




                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.









                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer






                        New contributor




                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.









                        answered 4 hours ago









                        guestguest

                        45115




                        45115




                        New contributor




                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.





                        New contributor





                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.






                        guest is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                        Check out our Code of Conduct.













                        • I'm in Germany (just as OP seems to be). In my experience, this level of independence would not be expected for a bachelor thesis (many supervisors and the time frame also wouldn't allow it). I'm going by the rule of thumb that the student has to do their own work, but a bachelor thesis is guided, a master thesis should not require guidance. Even for PhD theses, the leeway for the canditate selecting their project can be quite small in practice, depending on project funding/description (just as in real research life afterwards).

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Yes and no, on the guidance. There is a line between servile following and disregarding any input. I would argue you can/should have a perspective (just as an intelligent, adult, human) on the likelihood of success of your project. These things can be negotiated. You can modify scope, push back, decide a different advisor, etc. And in the end...it's your time. Gotta look out for yourself.

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago






                        • 1





                          Sure. Maybe most of our different perception of the situation here is that I'm not yet sure how good OP's judgement of their neighbour's likelihood of success is. I did get the impression that OP misunderstands thesis success as positive or useful (?) results whereas the thesis committee is to judge whether the student did sound science.

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Oh...I had a German speaking relative who lived behind the Iron Curtain, for a few years. He said..."well, they can't vote in elections so they vote with their feet". Something to consider...

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago













                        • cbeleites, I just said he (OP) should bring up the issue. "At least he (student) can consider the issue." This is not an assertion of Euclidean surety. Capisce?

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago





















                        • I'm in Germany (just as OP seems to be). In my experience, this level of independence would not be expected for a bachelor thesis (many supervisors and the time frame also wouldn't allow it). I'm going by the rule of thumb that the student has to do their own work, but a bachelor thesis is guided, a master thesis should not require guidance. Even for PhD theses, the leeway for the canditate selecting their project can be quite small in practice, depending on project funding/description (just as in real research life afterwards).

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Yes and no, on the guidance. There is a line between servile following and disregarding any input. I would argue you can/should have a perspective (just as an intelligent, adult, human) on the likelihood of success of your project. These things can be negotiated. You can modify scope, push back, decide a different advisor, etc. And in the end...it's your time. Gotta look out for yourself.

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago






                        • 1





                          Sure. Maybe most of our different perception of the situation here is that I'm not yet sure how good OP's judgement of their neighbour's likelihood of success is. I did get the impression that OP misunderstands thesis success as positive or useful (?) results whereas the thesis committee is to judge whether the student did sound science.

                          – cbeleites
                          1 hour ago











                        • Oh...I had a German speaking relative who lived behind the Iron Curtain, for a few years. He said..."well, they can't vote in elections so they vote with their feet". Something to consider...

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago













                        • cbeleites, I just said he (OP) should bring up the issue. "At least he (student) can consider the issue." This is not an assertion of Euclidean surety. Capisce?

                          – guest
                          1 hour ago



















                        I'm in Germany (just as OP seems to be). In my experience, this level of independence would not be expected for a bachelor thesis (many supervisors and the time frame also wouldn't allow it). I'm going by the rule of thumb that the student has to do their own work, but a bachelor thesis is guided, a master thesis should not require guidance. Even for PhD theses, the leeway for the canditate selecting their project can be quite small in practice, depending on project funding/description (just as in real research life afterwards).

                        – cbeleites
                        1 hour ago





                        I'm in Germany (just as OP seems to be). In my experience, this level of independence would not be expected for a bachelor thesis (many supervisors and the time frame also wouldn't allow it). I'm going by the rule of thumb that the student has to do their own work, but a bachelor thesis is guided, a master thesis should not require guidance. Even for PhD theses, the leeway for the canditate selecting their project can be quite small in practice, depending on project funding/description (just as in real research life afterwards).

                        – cbeleites
                        1 hour ago













                        Yes and no, on the guidance. There is a line between servile following and disregarding any input. I would argue you can/should have a perspective (just as an intelligent, adult, human) on the likelihood of success of your project. These things can be negotiated. You can modify scope, push back, decide a different advisor, etc. And in the end...it's your time. Gotta look out for yourself.

                        – guest
                        1 hour ago





                        Yes and no, on the guidance. There is a line between servile following and disregarding any input. I would argue you can/should have a perspective (just as an intelligent, adult, human) on the likelihood of success of your project. These things can be negotiated. You can modify scope, push back, decide a different advisor, etc. And in the end...it's your time. Gotta look out for yourself.

                        – guest
                        1 hour ago




                        1




                        1





                        Sure. Maybe most of our different perception of the situation here is that I'm not yet sure how good OP's judgement of their neighbour's likelihood of success is. I did get the impression that OP misunderstands thesis success as positive or useful (?) results whereas the thesis committee is to judge whether the student did sound science.

                        – cbeleites
                        1 hour ago





                        Sure. Maybe most of our different perception of the situation here is that I'm not yet sure how good OP's judgement of their neighbour's likelihood of success is. I did get the impression that OP misunderstands thesis success as positive or useful (?) results whereas the thesis committee is to judge whether the student did sound science.

                        – cbeleites
                        1 hour ago













                        Oh...I had a German speaking relative who lived behind the Iron Curtain, for a few years. He said..."well, they can't vote in elections so they vote with their feet". Something to consider...

                        – guest
                        1 hour ago







                        Oh...I had a German speaking relative who lived behind the Iron Curtain, for a few years. He said..."well, they can't vote in elections so they vote with their feet". Something to consider...

                        – guest
                        1 hour ago















                        cbeleites, I just said he (OP) should bring up the issue. "At least he (student) can consider the issue." This is not an assertion of Euclidean surety. Capisce?

                        – guest
                        1 hour ago







                        cbeleites, I just said he (OP) should bring up the issue. "At least he (student) can consider the issue." This is not an assertion of Euclidean surety. Capisce?

                        – guest
                        1 hour ago













                        1














                        You shouldn't interfere. Getting trapped into rabbit holes is part of the research process. Learning how to get of one on your own is part of the experience. It's a bit like trying learning to walk without falling; or walking only on a perfect surface.



                        Sure, someone could hold your hand all the time; point you the obstacles on your way etc. The point of research is to gain autonomy in your thought process.



                        Your supervisor probably knows what's going on but won't step until it's absolutely necessary. If you are asked for help, do share your views.



                        In academia this is handled by the researcher requesting feedback from his/her supervisor, from his peers, presenting at workshops and conferences etc.



                        For now your best help would be just to listen to him, and ask questions about his research without judgment of the results.






                        share|improve this answer


























                        • This seems like an awfully wasteful stance...

                          – user2768
                          8 hours ago











                        • @user2768 counter question, how do you know you have gone deep enough in exploring a possibility? The truth is you never know. In the OP's question it can be probably very easily clarified, but the further you go into a research career the less you know if a given path is right or not (e.g. the less people would be able to tell you if you're right or not). You need to rely in your own instincts as to weather to go deeper or not; and these instincts are only developed through experience. Thus why rely on others, when you can develop your skills?

                          – Koenig Lear
                          7 hours ago








                        • 2





                          @user2768 I argue that going down rabbit holes is useful, you may discover useful things. A lot of useful research has come out of rabbit holes. Non-euclidian geometry comes to mind.

                          – Koenig Lear
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          I don't think it's wasteful. Rabbit holes can be an important part of the learning experience. Allow the adviser to be the guide. Don't assume just because you don't see value that there isn't any.

                          – scrappedcola
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          @user2768 Don't forget one basic fact: if you know in advance how what you are doing will turn out, then you are not doing research.

                          – alephzero
                          1 hour ago


















                        1














                        You shouldn't interfere. Getting trapped into rabbit holes is part of the research process. Learning how to get of one on your own is part of the experience. It's a bit like trying learning to walk without falling; or walking only on a perfect surface.



                        Sure, someone could hold your hand all the time; point you the obstacles on your way etc. The point of research is to gain autonomy in your thought process.



                        Your supervisor probably knows what's going on but won't step until it's absolutely necessary. If you are asked for help, do share your views.



                        In academia this is handled by the researcher requesting feedback from his/her supervisor, from his peers, presenting at workshops and conferences etc.



                        For now your best help would be just to listen to him, and ask questions about his research without judgment of the results.






                        share|improve this answer


























                        • This seems like an awfully wasteful stance...

                          – user2768
                          8 hours ago











                        • @user2768 counter question, how do you know you have gone deep enough in exploring a possibility? The truth is you never know. In the OP's question it can be probably very easily clarified, but the further you go into a research career the less you know if a given path is right or not (e.g. the less people would be able to tell you if you're right or not). You need to rely in your own instincts as to weather to go deeper or not; and these instincts are only developed through experience. Thus why rely on others, when you can develop your skills?

                          – Koenig Lear
                          7 hours ago








                        • 2





                          @user2768 I argue that going down rabbit holes is useful, you may discover useful things. A lot of useful research has come out of rabbit holes. Non-euclidian geometry comes to mind.

                          – Koenig Lear
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          I don't think it's wasteful. Rabbit holes can be an important part of the learning experience. Allow the adviser to be the guide. Don't assume just because you don't see value that there isn't any.

                          – scrappedcola
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          @user2768 Don't forget one basic fact: if you know in advance how what you are doing will turn out, then you are not doing research.

                          – alephzero
                          1 hour ago
















                        1












                        1








                        1







                        You shouldn't interfere. Getting trapped into rabbit holes is part of the research process. Learning how to get of one on your own is part of the experience. It's a bit like trying learning to walk without falling; or walking only on a perfect surface.



                        Sure, someone could hold your hand all the time; point you the obstacles on your way etc. The point of research is to gain autonomy in your thought process.



                        Your supervisor probably knows what's going on but won't step until it's absolutely necessary. If you are asked for help, do share your views.



                        In academia this is handled by the researcher requesting feedback from his/her supervisor, from his peers, presenting at workshops and conferences etc.



                        For now your best help would be just to listen to him, and ask questions about his research without judgment of the results.






                        share|improve this answer















                        You shouldn't interfere. Getting trapped into rabbit holes is part of the research process. Learning how to get of one on your own is part of the experience. It's a bit like trying learning to walk without falling; or walking only on a perfect surface.



                        Sure, someone could hold your hand all the time; point you the obstacles on your way etc. The point of research is to gain autonomy in your thought process.



                        Your supervisor probably knows what's going on but won't step until it's absolutely necessary. If you are asked for help, do share your views.



                        In academia this is handled by the researcher requesting feedback from his/her supervisor, from his peers, presenting at workshops and conferences etc.



                        For now your best help would be just to listen to him, and ask questions about his research without judgment of the results.







                        share|improve this answer














                        share|improve this answer



                        share|improve this answer








                        edited 9 hours ago

























                        answered 9 hours ago









                        Koenig LearKoenig Lear

                        3378




                        3378













                        • This seems like an awfully wasteful stance...

                          – user2768
                          8 hours ago











                        • @user2768 counter question, how do you know you have gone deep enough in exploring a possibility? The truth is you never know. In the OP's question it can be probably very easily clarified, but the further you go into a research career the less you know if a given path is right or not (e.g. the less people would be able to tell you if you're right or not). You need to rely in your own instincts as to weather to go deeper or not; and these instincts are only developed through experience. Thus why rely on others, when you can develop your skills?

                          – Koenig Lear
                          7 hours ago








                        • 2





                          @user2768 I argue that going down rabbit holes is useful, you may discover useful things. A lot of useful research has come out of rabbit holes. Non-euclidian geometry comes to mind.

                          – Koenig Lear
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          I don't think it's wasteful. Rabbit holes can be an important part of the learning experience. Allow the adviser to be the guide. Don't assume just because you don't see value that there isn't any.

                          – scrappedcola
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          @user2768 Don't forget one basic fact: if you know in advance how what you are doing will turn out, then you are not doing research.

                          – alephzero
                          1 hour ago





















                        • This seems like an awfully wasteful stance...

                          – user2768
                          8 hours ago











                        • @user2768 counter question, how do you know you have gone deep enough in exploring a possibility? The truth is you never know. In the OP's question it can be probably very easily clarified, but the further you go into a research career the less you know if a given path is right or not (e.g. the less people would be able to tell you if you're right or not). You need to rely in your own instincts as to weather to go deeper or not; and these instincts are only developed through experience. Thus why rely on others, when you can develop your skills?

                          – Koenig Lear
                          7 hours ago








                        • 2





                          @user2768 I argue that going down rabbit holes is useful, you may discover useful things. A lot of useful research has come out of rabbit holes. Non-euclidian geometry comes to mind.

                          – Koenig Lear
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          I don't think it's wasteful. Rabbit holes can be an important part of the learning experience. Allow the adviser to be the guide. Don't assume just because you don't see value that there isn't any.

                          – scrappedcola
                          6 hours ago






                        • 1





                          @user2768 Don't forget one basic fact: if you know in advance how what you are doing will turn out, then you are not doing research.

                          – alephzero
                          1 hour ago



















                        This seems like an awfully wasteful stance...

                        – user2768
                        8 hours ago





                        This seems like an awfully wasteful stance...

                        – user2768
                        8 hours ago













                        @user2768 counter question, how do you know you have gone deep enough in exploring a possibility? The truth is you never know. In the OP's question it can be probably very easily clarified, but the further you go into a research career the less you know if a given path is right or not (e.g. the less people would be able to tell you if you're right or not). You need to rely in your own instincts as to weather to go deeper or not; and these instincts are only developed through experience. Thus why rely on others, when you can develop your skills?

                        – Koenig Lear
                        7 hours ago







                        @user2768 counter question, how do you know you have gone deep enough in exploring a possibility? The truth is you never know. In the OP's question it can be probably very easily clarified, but the further you go into a research career the less you know if a given path is right or not (e.g. the less people would be able to tell you if you're right or not). You need to rely in your own instincts as to weather to go deeper or not; and these instincts are only developed through experience. Thus why rely on others, when you can develop your skills?

                        – Koenig Lear
                        7 hours ago






                        2




                        2





                        @user2768 I argue that going down rabbit holes is useful, you may discover useful things. A lot of useful research has come out of rabbit holes. Non-euclidian geometry comes to mind.

                        – Koenig Lear
                        6 hours ago





                        @user2768 I argue that going down rabbit holes is useful, you may discover useful things. A lot of useful research has come out of rabbit holes. Non-euclidian geometry comes to mind.

                        – Koenig Lear
                        6 hours ago




                        1




                        1





                        I don't think it's wasteful. Rabbit holes can be an important part of the learning experience. Allow the adviser to be the guide. Don't assume just because you don't see value that there isn't any.

                        – scrappedcola
                        6 hours ago





                        I don't think it's wasteful. Rabbit holes can be an important part of the learning experience. Allow the adviser to be the guide. Don't assume just because you don't see value that there isn't any.

                        – scrappedcola
                        6 hours ago




                        1




                        1





                        @user2768 Don't forget one basic fact: if you know in advance how what you are doing will turn out, then you are not doing research.

                        – alephzero
                        1 hour ago







                        @user2768 Don't forget one basic fact: if you know in advance how what you are doing will turn out, then you are not doing research.

                        – alephzero
                        1 hour ago













                        1














                        Not getting nice (positive) results during a thesis is, well, not as nice as getting positive results.



                        It often also means more work for the student: after all, no nice results could be due to either




                        • the previously unknown reality just really not being that way*, or

                        • the student not being up to their task.


                        As the thesis is part of an exam, the student has (or feels pressured) to make sure the lack of nice results is not ascribed to their inability. Hence the additional work to make sure no examiner gets the wrong idea.



                        But it is perfectly possible to demonstrate sound scientific working (which after all is the exam task) while showing how something does not work. There is IMHO nothing inherently scientifically bad in their thesis as you describe it.



                        BTW, I'm speaking as someone who got a perfectly fine Diplom on a thesis showing how the approach suggested by my supervisor did not work out. By now I can even tell, why ;-) - and it triggered the better part of my PhD thesis and is still a pet rearch topic of mine years later.



                        Bottomline is that in this part of your description I do not see anything that clearly indicates** a need for "correction".

                        There may be a need for encouragement and understanding that that thesis may be even more stressing than other theses are, though.





                        That being said, what kind of raises a standard red flag is the approaching thesis deadline. Most students I've seen got in trouble with this deadline and the writing up of the thesis.



                        Maybe a buddy system in your office could help? As you already update each other regularly, maybe you could bring up the idea whether it would be good for both of you to remind each other of actually writing your theses?
                        (Regardless of results, e.g. theory can usually be written up rather early.)





                        * It was quite an eye-opener to me when someone from a funding agency once told me that they would fund projects only if they estimated the probability of failure to achieve the proposed [whatever] at least 80 %. At the same time, I'd have said that the inner-academic view of just such projects was that they almost always succeed...



                        ** Clearly as in I'm sure the problem is with your fellow student's thesis and not triggered by a misunderstanding of what a thesis should be and what the odds of doing sience are. This is partially triggered by your writing




                        • "interpreting essentially bad results": the results may be negative or not be what is desired, but the only way they can be bad here is if they are wrong because of bad science.

                        • "there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet". Usefulness is not a useful criterion to judge the value of the scientific work here. Results can of course be valid or invalid, but it's not the results that can suggest they are themselves valid (by being positive or nice) - validity has to be established independently of the outcome. The important question for validity and the exam is: does the student do sound science or not?


                        Of course, this could also be a bad thesis, just like a thesis with nice and "useful" results that is scientifically unsound.






                        share|improve this answer




























                          1














                          Not getting nice (positive) results during a thesis is, well, not as nice as getting positive results.



                          It often also means more work for the student: after all, no nice results could be due to either




                          • the previously unknown reality just really not being that way*, or

                          • the student not being up to their task.


                          As the thesis is part of an exam, the student has (or feels pressured) to make sure the lack of nice results is not ascribed to their inability. Hence the additional work to make sure no examiner gets the wrong idea.



                          But it is perfectly possible to demonstrate sound scientific working (which after all is the exam task) while showing how something does not work. There is IMHO nothing inherently scientifically bad in their thesis as you describe it.



                          BTW, I'm speaking as someone who got a perfectly fine Diplom on a thesis showing how the approach suggested by my supervisor did not work out. By now I can even tell, why ;-) - and it triggered the better part of my PhD thesis and is still a pet rearch topic of mine years later.



                          Bottomline is that in this part of your description I do not see anything that clearly indicates** a need for "correction".

                          There may be a need for encouragement and understanding that that thesis may be even more stressing than other theses are, though.





                          That being said, what kind of raises a standard red flag is the approaching thesis deadline. Most students I've seen got in trouble with this deadline and the writing up of the thesis.



                          Maybe a buddy system in your office could help? As you already update each other regularly, maybe you could bring up the idea whether it would be good for both of you to remind each other of actually writing your theses?
                          (Regardless of results, e.g. theory can usually be written up rather early.)





                          * It was quite an eye-opener to me when someone from a funding agency once told me that they would fund projects only if they estimated the probability of failure to achieve the proposed [whatever] at least 80 %. At the same time, I'd have said that the inner-academic view of just such projects was that they almost always succeed...



                          ** Clearly as in I'm sure the problem is with your fellow student's thesis and not triggered by a misunderstanding of what a thesis should be and what the odds of doing sience are. This is partially triggered by your writing




                          • "interpreting essentially bad results": the results may be negative or not be what is desired, but the only way they can be bad here is if they are wrong because of bad science.

                          • "there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet". Usefulness is not a useful criterion to judge the value of the scientific work here. Results can of course be valid or invalid, but it's not the results that can suggest they are themselves valid (by being positive or nice) - validity has to be established independently of the outcome. The important question for validity and the exam is: does the student do sound science or not?


                          Of course, this could also be a bad thesis, just like a thesis with nice and "useful" results that is scientifically unsound.






                          share|improve this answer


























                            1












                            1








                            1







                            Not getting nice (positive) results during a thesis is, well, not as nice as getting positive results.



                            It often also means more work for the student: after all, no nice results could be due to either




                            • the previously unknown reality just really not being that way*, or

                            • the student not being up to their task.


                            As the thesis is part of an exam, the student has (or feels pressured) to make sure the lack of nice results is not ascribed to their inability. Hence the additional work to make sure no examiner gets the wrong idea.



                            But it is perfectly possible to demonstrate sound scientific working (which after all is the exam task) while showing how something does not work. There is IMHO nothing inherently scientifically bad in their thesis as you describe it.



                            BTW, I'm speaking as someone who got a perfectly fine Diplom on a thesis showing how the approach suggested by my supervisor did not work out. By now I can even tell, why ;-) - and it triggered the better part of my PhD thesis and is still a pet rearch topic of mine years later.



                            Bottomline is that in this part of your description I do not see anything that clearly indicates** a need for "correction".

                            There may be a need for encouragement and understanding that that thesis may be even more stressing than other theses are, though.





                            That being said, what kind of raises a standard red flag is the approaching thesis deadline. Most students I've seen got in trouble with this deadline and the writing up of the thesis.



                            Maybe a buddy system in your office could help? As you already update each other regularly, maybe you could bring up the idea whether it would be good for both of you to remind each other of actually writing your theses?
                            (Regardless of results, e.g. theory can usually be written up rather early.)





                            * It was quite an eye-opener to me when someone from a funding agency once told me that they would fund projects only if they estimated the probability of failure to achieve the proposed [whatever] at least 80 %. At the same time, I'd have said that the inner-academic view of just such projects was that they almost always succeed...



                            ** Clearly as in I'm sure the problem is with your fellow student's thesis and not triggered by a misunderstanding of what a thesis should be and what the odds of doing sience are. This is partially triggered by your writing




                            • "interpreting essentially bad results": the results may be negative or not be what is desired, but the only way they can be bad here is if they are wrong because of bad science.

                            • "there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet". Usefulness is not a useful criterion to judge the value of the scientific work here. Results can of course be valid or invalid, but it's not the results that can suggest they are themselves valid (by being positive or nice) - validity has to be established independently of the outcome. The important question for validity and the exam is: does the student do sound science or not?


                            Of course, this could also be a bad thesis, just like a thesis with nice and "useful" results that is scientifically unsound.






                            share|improve this answer













                            Not getting nice (positive) results during a thesis is, well, not as nice as getting positive results.



                            It often also means more work for the student: after all, no nice results could be due to either




                            • the previously unknown reality just really not being that way*, or

                            • the student not being up to their task.


                            As the thesis is part of an exam, the student has (or feels pressured) to make sure the lack of nice results is not ascribed to their inability. Hence the additional work to make sure no examiner gets the wrong idea.



                            But it is perfectly possible to demonstrate sound scientific working (which after all is the exam task) while showing how something does not work. There is IMHO nothing inherently scientifically bad in their thesis as you describe it.



                            BTW, I'm speaking as someone who got a perfectly fine Diplom on a thesis showing how the approach suggested by my supervisor did not work out. By now I can even tell, why ;-) - and it triggered the better part of my PhD thesis and is still a pet rearch topic of mine years later.



                            Bottomline is that in this part of your description I do not see anything that clearly indicates** a need for "correction".

                            There may be a need for encouragement and understanding that that thesis may be even more stressing than other theses are, though.





                            That being said, what kind of raises a standard red flag is the approaching thesis deadline. Most students I've seen got in trouble with this deadline and the writing up of the thesis.



                            Maybe a buddy system in your office could help? As you already update each other regularly, maybe you could bring up the idea whether it would be good for both of you to remind each other of actually writing your theses?
                            (Regardless of results, e.g. theory can usually be written up rather early.)





                            * It was quite an eye-opener to me when someone from a funding agency once told me that they would fund projects only if they estimated the probability of failure to achieve the proposed [whatever] at least 80 %. At the same time, I'd have said that the inner-academic view of just such projects was that they almost always succeed...



                            ** Clearly as in I'm sure the problem is with your fellow student's thesis and not triggered by a misunderstanding of what a thesis should be and what the odds of doing sience are. This is partially triggered by your writing




                            • "interpreting essentially bad results": the results may be negative or not be what is desired, but the only way they can be bad here is if they are wrong because of bad science.

                            • "there are no results that suggest the research is valid or useful in any way yet". Usefulness is not a useful criterion to judge the value of the scientific work here. Results can of course be valid or invalid, but it's not the results that can suggest they are themselves valid (by being positive or nice) - validity has to be established independently of the outcome. The important question for validity and the exam is: does the student do sound science or not?


                            Of course, this could also be a bad thesis, just like a thesis with nice and "useful" results that is scientifically unsound.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 1 hour ago









                            cbeleitescbeleites

                            13.1k2654




                            13.1k2654























                                1














                                Your co-ed seems to be passionate about his research, and according to you it is original. His supervisor seems to be satisfied with his work, so far. Positive results are not neccessary for a bachelor's thesis, and results are not usually expected to be published. I don't see a major problem here. Certainly no reason to "intervene"! So if you are interested in his work, ask about it, have him explain it to you, maybe bring up ideas, offer to proof-read whatever he has already. But don't add any pressure.






                                share|improve this answer








                                New contributor




                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                                • Exactly. Bachelor theses are a great way to do a proof of concept for high risk ideas and it's no problem if it doesn't result in anything more than the student learning something and knowing that the project doesn't work in the way envisioned.

                                  – DSVA
                                  7 mins ago
















                                1














                                Your co-ed seems to be passionate about his research, and according to you it is original. His supervisor seems to be satisfied with his work, so far. Positive results are not neccessary for a bachelor's thesis, and results are not usually expected to be published. I don't see a major problem here. Certainly no reason to "intervene"! So if you are interested in his work, ask about it, have him explain it to you, maybe bring up ideas, offer to proof-read whatever he has already. But don't add any pressure.






                                share|improve this answer








                                New contributor




                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                                • Exactly. Bachelor theses are a great way to do a proof of concept for high risk ideas and it's no problem if it doesn't result in anything more than the student learning something and knowing that the project doesn't work in the way envisioned.

                                  – DSVA
                                  7 mins ago














                                1












                                1








                                1







                                Your co-ed seems to be passionate about his research, and according to you it is original. His supervisor seems to be satisfied with his work, so far. Positive results are not neccessary for a bachelor's thesis, and results are not usually expected to be published. I don't see a major problem here. Certainly no reason to "intervene"! So if you are interested in his work, ask about it, have him explain it to you, maybe bring up ideas, offer to proof-read whatever he has already. But don't add any pressure.






                                share|improve this answer








                                New contributor




                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.










                                Your co-ed seems to be passionate about his research, and according to you it is original. His supervisor seems to be satisfied with his work, so far. Positive results are not neccessary for a bachelor's thesis, and results are not usually expected to be published. I don't see a major problem here. Certainly no reason to "intervene"! So if you are interested in his work, ask about it, have him explain it to you, maybe bring up ideas, offer to proof-read whatever he has already. But don't add any pressure.







                                share|improve this answer








                                New contributor




                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                share|improve this answer



                                share|improve this answer






                                New contributor




                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.









                                answered 28 mins ago









                                M. SternM. Stern

                                1113




                                1113




                                New contributor




                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.





                                New contributor





                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.






                                M. Stern is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                                Check out our Code of Conduct.













                                • Exactly. Bachelor theses are a great way to do a proof of concept for high risk ideas and it's no problem if it doesn't result in anything more than the student learning something and knowing that the project doesn't work in the way envisioned.

                                  – DSVA
                                  7 mins ago



















                                • Exactly. Bachelor theses are a great way to do a proof of concept for high risk ideas and it's no problem if it doesn't result in anything more than the student learning something and knowing that the project doesn't work in the way envisioned.

                                  – DSVA
                                  7 mins ago

















                                Exactly. Bachelor theses are a great way to do a proof of concept for high risk ideas and it's no problem if it doesn't result in anything more than the student learning something and knowing that the project doesn't work in the way envisioned.

                                – DSVA
                                7 mins ago





                                Exactly. Bachelor theses are a great way to do a proof of concept for high risk ideas and it's no problem if it doesn't result in anything more than the student learning something and knowing that the project doesn't work in the way envisioned.

                                – DSVA
                                7 mins ago


















                                draft saved

                                draft discarded




















































                                Thanks for contributing an answer to Academia Stack Exchange!


                                • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                                But avoid



                                • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                                • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                                To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                                draft saved


                                draft discarded














                                StackExchange.ready(
                                function () {
                                StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2facademia.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f123759%2ffellow-student-seems-to-be-chasing-rainbows-should-i-step-in%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                                }
                                );

                                Post as a guest















                                Required, but never shown





















































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown

































                                Required, but never shown














                                Required, but never shown












                                Required, but never shown







                                Required, but never shown







                                Popular posts from this blog

                                What are all the squawk codes?

                                What are differences between VBoxVGA, VMSVGA and VBoxSVGA in VirtualBox?

                                Hudsonelva