Why did the Baron and Piter de Vries fear the Truthsayer?
The Baron does not want to know how
Lady Jessica and Paul Atreides die,
out of fear of the Bene Gesserit Truthsayer; or at least that is what Jessica deduces. The same goes for Piter de Vries.
But it seems obvious that the purpose of the Harkonnens attacking the Atreides is to
kill the family/bloodline.
Since the Empreror himself is involved in the plot, why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer, and why do they fear to reveal their whereabouts?
dune
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
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piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
The Baron does not want to know how
Lady Jessica and Paul Atreides die,
out of fear of the Bene Gesserit Truthsayer; or at least that is what Jessica deduces. The same goes for Piter de Vries.
But it seems obvious that the purpose of the Harkonnens attacking the Atreides is to
kill the family/bloodline.
Since the Empreror himself is involved in the plot, why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer, and why do they fear to reveal their whereabouts?
dune
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
New contributor
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
The Baron does not want to know how
Lady Jessica and Paul Atreides die,
out of fear of the Bene Gesserit Truthsayer; or at least that is what Jessica deduces. The same goes for Piter de Vries.
But it seems obvious that the purpose of the Harkonnens attacking the Atreides is to
kill the family/bloodline.
Since the Empreror himself is involved in the plot, why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer, and why do they fear to reveal their whereabouts?
dune
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
New contributor
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
The Baron does not want to know how
Lady Jessica and Paul Atreides die,
out of fear of the Bene Gesserit Truthsayer; or at least that is what Jessica deduces. The same goes for Piter de Vries.
But it seems obvious that the purpose of the Harkonnens attacking the Atreides is to
kill the family/bloodline.
Since the Empreror himself is involved in the plot, why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer, and why do they fear to reveal their whereabouts?
dune
dune
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
New contributor
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
New contributor
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 2 hours ago
piwi
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
New contributor
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
asked 2 hours ago
piwipiwi
1264
1264
New contributor
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
piwi is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
It's not that the Baron doesn't want to watch them die, it's that he wants plausible deniability as to the reason and manner of their deaths. He wants to be able to stand in the presence of the Truthsayer and say "I didn't kill the boy or the woman and I didn't order their deaths" and for it to be the strict truth. By using a proxy (Piter) he allows himself the victory he wants, the ending of the Atreides line in as unpleasant a way possible without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete.
As to why the Emperor wants Paul and Jessica, this is down to the Bene Gesserit. They want to take them into custody (presumably in exile on their Chapter House planet) until it's time to bring the final stage of their breeding plan to fruition, by wedding Paul to a Harkonnen female, sealing the bloodlines and creating their superhuman.
“We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your
father, nothing. When you’ve learned to accept that as a fact, you’ve
learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson.”
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
"without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete." Is there any quote that supports this? Or at what point is this revealed? I may have missed this part.
– piwi
38 mins ago
@piwi - The closest we get is when the Baron says "Remember–I am giving up the boy. You heard what the traitor said about the lad’s training. They are alike, this mother and son–deadly.”. But we do know there was a 'thopter set aside specifically for extracting Paul and Jessica, so he must have had some plans for them, other then simply killing them when found. In general you don't keep people alive if you want them dead :-)
– Valorum
21 mins ago
add a comment |
In the Dune-verse at the time of the Dune novel, Emperor Shaddam IV is not all-powerful - in fact, he is often portrayed as a puppet of the various other powers. Politically, his influence is regulated by the Landsraat, and the other powers (Space Guild, Bene Gesserit, other noble houses, and other minor powers) contribute their own power (or withhold it) to manipulate the Emperor to their own ends. There are always plots going on, and the books go to great lengths to explain the thought-processes of the key players. Even Paul, as he claims the throne and the Emperor's daughter to be his "wife", sees that there are numerous plots afoot and that he must take care not to over-reach. Of course, he eventually takes a damn-the-torpedoes approach and plunges the galaxy into war (he laments at one point that trillions have been killed in his wars), but that comes later.
So, in this instance, the Harkonnens and the Emperor both know that if their plan becomes public knowledge, they could be censured by the other powers - Space Guild could withhold interplanetary travel, and thus access to the spice, and the BGs[1] could withhold their power to influence the gene-pool and see the future, etc.
[1] the bald ladies wot sees the future, not the 70s disco band
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
Thanks for this explanation, but I don't understand how this answers the question. Knowing how Paul and his mother die does not prevent from revealing the Baron and the Emperor are involved in this plot.
– piwi
1 hour ago
@piwi - I am answering your question, "why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer?" The answer also covers the details on the "whereabouts" because that information would just further point to the direct involvement of the Emperor and the Baron who are trying to avoid being implicated in the deaths.
– Sam
1 hour ago
1
@piwi, it's plausible deniability init? "Are they dead?". "I dunno, they might be, they not be. I didn't see them die and no one has told me how they die.".
– Darren
1 hour ago
@Sam So the question was not specific enough I guess, I am really seeking an answer in the context of the attempt to get rid of Jessica and Paul.
– piwi
1 hour ago
1
@piwi Now you know how the Truthsayers feel.
– Steve-O
43 mins ago
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
It's not that the Baron doesn't want to watch them die, it's that he wants plausible deniability as to the reason and manner of their deaths. He wants to be able to stand in the presence of the Truthsayer and say "I didn't kill the boy or the woman and I didn't order their deaths" and for it to be the strict truth. By using a proxy (Piter) he allows himself the victory he wants, the ending of the Atreides line in as unpleasant a way possible without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete.
As to why the Emperor wants Paul and Jessica, this is down to the Bene Gesserit. They want to take them into custody (presumably in exile on their Chapter House planet) until it's time to bring the final stage of their breeding plan to fruition, by wedding Paul to a Harkonnen female, sealing the bloodlines and creating their superhuman.
“We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your
father, nothing. When you’ve learned to accept that as a fact, you’ve
learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson.”
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
"without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete." Is there any quote that supports this? Or at what point is this revealed? I may have missed this part.
– piwi
38 mins ago
@piwi - The closest we get is when the Baron says "Remember–I am giving up the boy. You heard what the traitor said about the lad’s training. They are alike, this mother and son–deadly.”. But we do know there was a 'thopter set aside specifically for extracting Paul and Jessica, so he must have had some plans for them, other then simply killing them when found. In general you don't keep people alive if you want them dead :-)
– Valorum
21 mins ago
add a comment |
It's not that the Baron doesn't want to watch them die, it's that he wants plausible deniability as to the reason and manner of their deaths. He wants to be able to stand in the presence of the Truthsayer and say "I didn't kill the boy or the woman and I didn't order their deaths" and for it to be the strict truth. By using a proxy (Piter) he allows himself the victory he wants, the ending of the Atreides line in as unpleasant a way possible without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete.
As to why the Emperor wants Paul and Jessica, this is down to the Bene Gesserit. They want to take them into custody (presumably in exile on their Chapter House planet) until it's time to bring the final stage of their breeding plan to fruition, by wedding Paul to a Harkonnen female, sealing the bloodlines and creating their superhuman.
“We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your
father, nothing. When you’ve learned to accept that as a fact, you’ve
learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson.”
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
"without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete." Is there any quote that supports this? Or at what point is this revealed? I may have missed this part.
– piwi
38 mins ago
@piwi - The closest we get is when the Baron says "Remember–I am giving up the boy. You heard what the traitor said about the lad’s training. They are alike, this mother and son–deadly.”. But we do know there was a 'thopter set aside specifically for extracting Paul and Jessica, so he must have had some plans for them, other then simply killing them when found. In general you don't keep people alive if you want them dead :-)
– Valorum
21 mins ago
add a comment |
It's not that the Baron doesn't want to watch them die, it's that he wants plausible deniability as to the reason and manner of their deaths. He wants to be able to stand in the presence of the Truthsayer and say "I didn't kill the boy or the woman and I didn't order their deaths" and for it to be the strict truth. By using a proxy (Piter) he allows himself the victory he wants, the ending of the Atreides line in as unpleasant a way possible without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete.
As to why the Emperor wants Paul and Jessica, this is down to the Bene Gesserit. They want to take them into custody (presumably in exile on their Chapter House planet) until it's time to bring the final stage of their breeding plan to fruition, by wedding Paul to a Harkonnen female, sealing the bloodlines and creating their superhuman.
“We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your
father, nothing. When you’ve learned to accept that as a fact, you’ve
learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson.”
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
It's not that the Baron doesn't want to watch them die, it's that he wants plausible deniability as to the reason and manner of their deaths. He wants to be able to stand in the presence of the Truthsayer and say "I didn't kill the boy or the woman and I didn't order their deaths" and for it to be the strict truth. By using a proxy (Piter) he allows himself the victory he wants, the ending of the Atreides line in as unpleasant a way possible without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete.
As to why the Emperor wants Paul and Jessica, this is down to the Bene Gesserit. They want to take them into custody (presumably in exile on their Chapter House planet) until it's time to bring the final stage of their breeding plan to fruition, by wedding Paul to a Harkonnen female, sealing the bloodlines and creating their superhuman.
“We may be able to salvage you. Doubtful, but possible. But for your
father, nothing. When you’ve learned to accept that as a fact, you’ve
learned a real Bene Gesserit lesson.”
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
answered 1 hour ago
ValorumValorum
400k10529113139
400k10529113139
"without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete." Is there any quote that supports this? Or at what point is this revealed? I may have missed this part.
– piwi
38 mins ago
@piwi - The closest we get is when the Baron says "Remember–I am giving up the boy. You heard what the traitor said about the lad’s training. They are alike, this mother and son–deadly.”. But we do know there was a 'thopter set aside specifically for extracting Paul and Jessica, so he must have had some plans for them, other then simply killing them when found. In general you don't keep people alive if you want them dead :-)
– Valorum
21 mins ago
add a comment |
"without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete." Is there any quote that supports this? Or at what point is this revealed? I may have missed this part.
– piwi
38 mins ago
@piwi - The closest we get is when the Baron says "Remember–I am giving up the boy. You heard what the traitor said about the lad’s training. They are alike, this mother and son–deadly.”. But we do know there was a 'thopter set aside specifically for extracting Paul and Jessica, so he must have had some plans for them, other then simply killing them when found. In general you don't keep people alive if you want them dead :-)
– Valorum
21 mins ago
"without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete." Is there any quote that supports this? Or at what point is this revealed? I may have missed this part.
– piwi
38 mins ago
"without breaching his evident bargain with the Emperor, that he'll deliver up the boy and his mother alive after the invasion is complete." Is there any quote that supports this? Or at what point is this revealed? I may have missed this part.
– piwi
38 mins ago
@piwi - The closest we get is when the Baron says "Remember–I am giving up the boy. You heard what the traitor said about the lad’s training. They are alike, this mother and son–deadly.”. But we do know there was a 'thopter set aside specifically for extracting Paul and Jessica, so he must have had some plans for them, other then simply killing them when found. In general you don't keep people alive if you want them dead :-)
– Valorum
21 mins ago
@piwi - The closest we get is when the Baron says "Remember–I am giving up the boy. You heard what the traitor said about the lad’s training. They are alike, this mother and son–deadly.”. But we do know there was a 'thopter set aside specifically for extracting Paul and Jessica, so he must have had some plans for them, other then simply killing them when found. In general you don't keep people alive if you want them dead :-)
– Valorum
21 mins ago
add a comment |
In the Dune-verse at the time of the Dune novel, Emperor Shaddam IV is not all-powerful - in fact, he is often portrayed as a puppet of the various other powers. Politically, his influence is regulated by the Landsraat, and the other powers (Space Guild, Bene Gesserit, other noble houses, and other minor powers) contribute their own power (or withhold it) to manipulate the Emperor to their own ends. There are always plots going on, and the books go to great lengths to explain the thought-processes of the key players. Even Paul, as he claims the throne and the Emperor's daughter to be his "wife", sees that there are numerous plots afoot and that he must take care not to over-reach. Of course, he eventually takes a damn-the-torpedoes approach and plunges the galaxy into war (he laments at one point that trillions have been killed in his wars), but that comes later.
So, in this instance, the Harkonnens and the Emperor both know that if their plan becomes public knowledge, they could be censured by the other powers - Space Guild could withhold interplanetary travel, and thus access to the spice, and the BGs[1] could withhold their power to influence the gene-pool and see the future, etc.
[1] the bald ladies wot sees the future, not the 70s disco band
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
Thanks for this explanation, but I don't understand how this answers the question. Knowing how Paul and his mother die does not prevent from revealing the Baron and the Emperor are involved in this plot.
– piwi
1 hour ago
@piwi - I am answering your question, "why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer?" The answer also covers the details on the "whereabouts" because that information would just further point to the direct involvement of the Emperor and the Baron who are trying to avoid being implicated in the deaths.
– Sam
1 hour ago
1
@piwi, it's plausible deniability init? "Are they dead?". "I dunno, they might be, they not be. I didn't see them die and no one has told me how they die.".
– Darren
1 hour ago
@Sam So the question was not specific enough I guess, I am really seeking an answer in the context of the attempt to get rid of Jessica and Paul.
– piwi
1 hour ago
1
@piwi Now you know how the Truthsayers feel.
– Steve-O
43 mins ago
add a comment |
In the Dune-verse at the time of the Dune novel, Emperor Shaddam IV is not all-powerful - in fact, he is often portrayed as a puppet of the various other powers. Politically, his influence is regulated by the Landsraat, and the other powers (Space Guild, Bene Gesserit, other noble houses, and other minor powers) contribute their own power (or withhold it) to manipulate the Emperor to their own ends. There are always plots going on, and the books go to great lengths to explain the thought-processes of the key players. Even Paul, as he claims the throne and the Emperor's daughter to be his "wife", sees that there are numerous plots afoot and that he must take care not to over-reach. Of course, he eventually takes a damn-the-torpedoes approach and plunges the galaxy into war (he laments at one point that trillions have been killed in his wars), but that comes later.
So, in this instance, the Harkonnens and the Emperor both know that if their plan becomes public knowledge, they could be censured by the other powers - Space Guild could withhold interplanetary travel, and thus access to the spice, and the BGs[1] could withhold their power to influence the gene-pool and see the future, etc.
[1] the bald ladies wot sees the future, not the 70s disco band
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
Thanks for this explanation, but I don't understand how this answers the question. Knowing how Paul and his mother die does not prevent from revealing the Baron and the Emperor are involved in this plot.
– piwi
1 hour ago
@piwi - I am answering your question, "why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer?" The answer also covers the details on the "whereabouts" because that information would just further point to the direct involvement of the Emperor and the Baron who are trying to avoid being implicated in the deaths.
– Sam
1 hour ago
1
@piwi, it's plausible deniability init? "Are they dead?". "I dunno, they might be, they not be. I didn't see them die and no one has told me how they die.".
– Darren
1 hour ago
@Sam So the question was not specific enough I guess, I am really seeking an answer in the context of the attempt to get rid of Jessica and Paul.
– piwi
1 hour ago
1
@piwi Now you know how the Truthsayers feel.
– Steve-O
43 mins ago
add a comment |
In the Dune-verse at the time of the Dune novel, Emperor Shaddam IV is not all-powerful - in fact, he is often portrayed as a puppet of the various other powers. Politically, his influence is regulated by the Landsraat, and the other powers (Space Guild, Bene Gesserit, other noble houses, and other minor powers) contribute their own power (or withhold it) to manipulate the Emperor to their own ends. There are always plots going on, and the books go to great lengths to explain the thought-processes of the key players. Even Paul, as he claims the throne and the Emperor's daughter to be his "wife", sees that there are numerous plots afoot and that he must take care not to over-reach. Of course, he eventually takes a damn-the-torpedoes approach and plunges the galaxy into war (he laments at one point that trillions have been killed in his wars), but that comes later.
So, in this instance, the Harkonnens and the Emperor both know that if their plan becomes public knowledge, they could be censured by the other powers - Space Guild could withhold interplanetary travel, and thus access to the spice, and the BGs[1] could withhold their power to influence the gene-pool and see the future, etc.
[1] the bald ladies wot sees the future, not the 70s disco band
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
In the Dune-verse at the time of the Dune novel, Emperor Shaddam IV is not all-powerful - in fact, he is often portrayed as a puppet of the various other powers. Politically, his influence is regulated by the Landsraat, and the other powers (Space Guild, Bene Gesserit, other noble houses, and other minor powers) contribute their own power (or withhold it) to manipulate the Emperor to their own ends. There are always plots going on, and the books go to great lengths to explain the thought-processes of the key players. Even Paul, as he claims the throne and the Emperor's daughter to be his "wife", sees that there are numerous plots afoot and that he must take care not to over-reach. Of course, he eventually takes a damn-the-torpedoes approach and plunges the galaxy into war (he laments at one point that trillions have been killed in his wars), but that comes later.
So, in this instance, the Harkonnens and the Emperor both know that if their plan becomes public knowledge, they could be censured by the other powers - Space Guild could withhold interplanetary travel, and thus access to the spice, and the BGs[1] could withhold their power to influence the gene-pool and see the future, etc.
[1] the bald ladies wot sees the future, not the 70s disco band
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
answered 1 hour ago
SamSam
22828
22828
Thanks for this explanation, but I don't understand how this answers the question. Knowing how Paul and his mother die does not prevent from revealing the Baron and the Emperor are involved in this plot.
– piwi
1 hour ago
@piwi - I am answering your question, "why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer?" The answer also covers the details on the "whereabouts" because that information would just further point to the direct involvement of the Emperor and the Baron who are trying to avoid being implicated in the deaths.
– Sam
1 hour ago
1
@piwi, it's plausible deniability init? "Are they dead?". "I dunno, they might be, they not be. I didn't see them die and no one has told me how they die.".
– Darren
1 hour ago
@Sam So the question was not specific enough I guess, I am really seeking an answer in the context of the attempt to get rid of Jessica and Paul.
– piwi
1 hour ago
1
@piwi Now you know how the Truthsayers feel.
– Steve-O
43 mins ago
add a comment |
Thanks for this explanation, but I don't understand how this answers the question. Knowing how Paul and his mother die does not prevent from revealing the Baron and the Emperor are involved in this plot.
– piwi
1 hour ago
@piwi - I am answering your question, "why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer?" The answer also covers the details on the "whereabouts" because that information would just further point to the direct involvement of the Emperor and the Baron who are trying to avoid being implicated in the deaths.
– Sam
1 hour ago
1
@piwi, it's plausible deniability init? "Are they dead?". "I dunno, they might be, they not be. I didn't see them die and no one has told me how they die.".
– Darren
1 hour ago
@Sam So the question was not specific enough I guess, I am really seeking an answer in the context of the attempt to get rid of Jessica and Paul.
– piwi
1 hour ago
1
@piwi Now you know how the Truthsayers feel.
– Steve-O
43 mins ago
Thanks for this explanation, but I don't understand how this answers the question. Knowing how Paul and his mother die does not prevent from revealing the Baron and the Emperor are involved in this plot.
– piwi
1 hour ago
Thanks for this explanation, but I don't understand how this answers the question. Knowing how Paul and his mother die does not prevent from revealing the Baron and the Emperor are involved in this plot.
– piwi
1 hour ago
@piwi - I am answering your question, "why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer?" The answer also covers the details on the "whereabouts" because that information would just further point to the direct involvement of the Emperor and the Baron who are trying to avoid being implicated in the deaths.
– Sam
1 hour ago
@piwi - I am answering your question, "why would they fear to be questioned by a Truthsayer?" The answer also covers the details on the "whereabouts" because that information would just further point to the direct involvement of the Emperor and the Baron who are trying to avoid being implicated in the deaths.
– Sam
1 hour ago
1
1
@piwi, it's plausible deniability init? "Are they dead?". "I dunno, they might be, they not be. I didn't see them die and no one has told me how they die.".
– Darren
1 hour ago
@piwi, it's plausible deniability init? "Are they dead?". "I dunno, they might be, they not be. I didn't see them die and no one has told me how they die.".
– Darren
1 hour ago
@Sam So the question was not specific enough I guess, I am really seeking an answer in the context of the attempt to get rid of Jessica and Paul.
– piwi
1 hour ago
@Sam So the question was not specific enough I guess, I am really seeking an answer in the context of the attempt to get rid of Jessica and Paul.
– piwi
1 hour ago
1
1
@piwi Now you know how the Truthsayers feel.
– Steve-O
43 mins ago
@piwi Now you know how the Truthsayers feel.
– Steve-O
43 mins ago
add a comment |
piwi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
piwi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
piwi is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
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